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> Isn't that the cause of the issue though ? "Who cares about 100+ years in the future, my v8 mustang and my weekly plane trips are pretty convenient, and plant

> Isn't that the cause of the issue though ? "Who cares about 100+ years in the future, my v8 mustang and my weekly plane trips are pretty convenient, and planting a tree won't change much anyway, and china is doing anyway, plus if I'm the only one doing it it won't help that much, and &c." This is a caricature with little bearing on reality. Indeed, the biggest share of CO2 emissions isn't due to "rich Americans" living wasteful lifestyles, but people in emerging economies living a comparably modest lifestyle. That's what makes this problem extremely difficult. We would have to deny those people the lifestyle that we enjoyed for the past 50+ years. We could achieve far more by, say, investing into replacing more primitive power generation in those countries than replacing inner-country air travel with more primitive transport. > The problem is that the things most countries agreed on are not nearly enough and even if they were almost none of the goals are met. Of course, moral posturing costs nothing. When you actually try to do something as political leader, such as putting a tax on fuels as Macron did, chaos ensues.

lm28469 7y ago
> Indeed, the biggest share of CO2 emissions isn't due to "rich Americans" living wasteful lifestyles, but people in emerging economies living a comparably modest lifestyle. Not really https://www.ucsusa.org/global-warming/science-and-impacts/science/each-countrys-share-of-co2.html https://www.ucsusa.org/global-warming/science-and-impacts/sc... > We would have to deny those people the lifestyle that we enjoyed for the past 50+ years. It's not like they have to go through the industrial revolution 1800s UK style to attain our level, we have the tech (and they're using it, solar/wind is becoming extremely competitive for example, hell even nuclear is better than coal/gas). But yeah if everyone's going to live like the current US/EU citizen we're fucked for sure no matter how many trees we plant. > We could achieve far more by, say, investing into replacing more primitive power generation in those countries than replacing inner-country air travel with more primitive transport. Or we could do both since these things are 100% unrelated and not enough anyway. We're all responsible and we can all do better, so let's stop playing dumb games and do what we can. It's not like skipping your trip to standard_tourisitic_location_#231, eating less meat, buying local food, using public transportation or buying less useless junk on amazon/ebay is going to turn your life to absolute shit so let's do it ... Yes cargo ships, asian factories, saudi's oil fields, pollute a lot, but guess who's profiting from them... Don't you see the big picture ? How do you think your colombian coffee, ecuadorian bananas, chinese phones, thai clothes, saudi's gas, japanese cameras are made / get to you to you ? "Yelp, it's not me, it's the chinese/indians/saudis, look at the stats!!!". It feels like talking about pollution is like asking your 8 years old to do his homework, "I'll do it in an hour".
- gridlockd 7y ago
  > Not really Yes, really. Those number support my point. The vast majority of CO2 emissions are from countries with "relatively modest" living standards. > But yeah if everyone's going to live like the current US/EU citizen we're fucked for sure no matter how many trees we plant. I guess we're fucked then, right? Because that's the trajectory. > Or we could do both since these things are 100% unrelated and not enough anyway. They're not unrelated at all, because money spent on one thing can't be spent on something else. Furthermore, giving up airplane travel for, say, railroads, is a lowering in standard of living. Investing in infrastructure abroad isn't. > We're all responsible and we can all do better, so let's stop playing dumb games and do what we can. Sure "we" can, but "we" won't, so let's indeed stop playing dumb games of moral posturing and figure out how we can have the best impact without relying on humans suddenly acting in a rational and responsible manner. It's just not going to happen. > It's not like skipping your trip to standard_tourisitic_location_#231, eating less meat, buying local food, using public transportation or buying less useless junk on amazon/ebay is going to turn your life to absolute shit so let's do it Yeah, fuck that. I'm not giving up on any of it. Now what? What are you gonna do about it? Remember, I'm billions of people.
  - yongjik 7y ago
    > Yeah, fuck that. I'm not giving up on any of it. Now what? What are you gonna do about it? Tax.
    - gridlockd 7y ago
      > Tax. You know what happens when you tax people too much and they don't like it, right? Otherwise, I'm with you on that one.
  - lm28469 7y ago
    > is a lowering in standard of living Eh, what if we need to lower our living standards ? The earth is a finite space with finite resources. Do you really think we can get 8b people live like the average US/EU citizen ? We can barely do it with < 2b and it's already too much pressure on the environment. What's the end goal ? We all have cars, amazon same day drone delivery, eat meat 3 times per day and go on vacation every 3 months ? Is that humanity's endgame ? Most intelligent specie on earth, intelligent enough to comprehend the issue, too primitive to act on it, if that's humanity's fate it's kind of ironic, I like it in some way. "I want it all today even if it means I won't have anything tomorrow" > Yeah, fuck that. I'm not giving up on any of it. Now what? What are you gonna do about it? Remember, I'm billions of people. I'll be long dead before it starts having real world impacts. But at least I can sleep at night knowing I'm not actively trying to make things worse for future generations. Earth will be fine even if we fuck it up, life will most likely survive and thrive. All in all it wouldn't be that bad, just like when dinosaurs went extinct, but instead of a natural disaster it's mass suicide.

lm28469 7y ago

> Indeed, the biggest share of CO2 emissions isn't due to "rich Americans" living wasteful lifestyles, but people in emerging economies living a comparably modest lifestyle. Not really https://www.ucsusa.org/global-warming/science-and-impacts/science/each-countrys-share-of-co2.html https://www.ucsusa.org/global-warming/science-and-impacts/sc... > We would have to deny those people the lifestyle that we enjoyed for the past 50+ years. It's not like they have to go through the industrial revolution 1800s UK style to attain our level, we have the tech (and they're using it, solar/wind is becoming extremely competitive for example, hell even nuclear is better than coal/gas). But yeah if everyone's going to live like the current US/EU citizen we're fucked for sure no matter how many trees we plant. > We could achieve far more by, say, investing into replacing more primitive power generation in those countries than replacing inner-country air travel with more primitive transport. Or we could do both since these things are 100% unrelated and not enough anyway. We're all responsible and we can all do better, so let's stop playing dumb games and do what we can. It's not like skipping your trip to standard_tourisitic_location_#231, eating less meat, buying local food, using public transportation or buying less useless junk on amazon/ebay is going to turn your life to absolute shit so let's do it ... Yes cargo ships, asian factories, saudi's oil fields, pollute a lot, but guess who's profiting from them... Don't you see the big picture ? How do you think your colombian coffee, ecuadorian bananas, chinese phones, thai clothes, saudi's gas, japanese cameras are made / get to you to you ? "Yelp, it's not me, it's the chinese/indians/saudis, look at the stats!!!". It feels like talking about pollution is like asking your 8 years old to do his homework, "I'll do it in an hour".

gridlockd 7y ago
> Not really Yes, really. Those number support my point. The vast majority of CO2 emissions are from countries with "relatively modest" living standards. > But yeah if everyone's going to live like the current US/EU citizen we're fucked for sure no matter how many trees we plant. I guess we're fucked then, right? Because that's the trajectory. > Or we could do both since these things are 100% unrelated and not enough anyway. They're not unrelated at all, because money spent on one thing can't be spent on something else. Furthermore, giving up airplane travel for, say, railroads, is a lowering in standard of living. Investing in infrastructure abroad isn't. > We're all responsible and we can all do better, so let's stop playing dumb games and do what we can. Sure "we" can, but "we" won't, so let's indeed stop playing dumb games of moral posturing and figure out how we can have the best impact without relying on humans suddenly acting in a rational and responsible manner. It's just not going to happen. > It's not like skipping your trip to standard_tourisitic_location_#231, eating less meat, buying local food, using public transportation or buying less useless junk on amazon/ebay is going to turn your life to absolute shit so let's do it Yeah, fuck that. I'm not giving up on any of it. Now what? What are you gonna do about it? Remember, I'm billions of people.
- yongjik 7y ago
  > Yeah, fuck that. I'm not giving up on any of it. Now what? What are you gonna do about it? Tax.
  - gridlockd 7y ago
    > Tax. You know what happens when you tax people too much and they don't like it, right? Otherwise, I'm with you on that one.
- lm28469 7y ago
  > is a lowering in standard of living Eh, what if we need to lower our living standards ? The earth is a finite space with finite resources. Do you really think we can get 8b people live like the average US/EU citizen ? We can barely do it with < 2b and it's already too much pressure on the environment. What's the end goal ? We all have cars, amazon same day drone delivery, eat meat 3 times per day and go on vacation every 3 months ? Is that humanity's endgame ? Most intelligent specie on earth, intelligent enough to comprehend the issue, too primitive to act on it, if that's humanity's fate it's kind of ironic, I like it in some way. "I want it all today even if it means I won't have anything tomorrow" > Yeah, fuck that. I'm not giving up on any of it. Now what? What are you gonna do about it? Remember, I'm billions of people. I'll be long dead before it starts having real world impacts. But at least I can sleep at night knowing I'm not actively trying to make things worse for future generations. Earth will be fine even if we fuck it up, life will most likely survive and thrive. All in all it wouldn't be that bad, just like when dinosaurs went extinct, but instead of a natural disaster it's mass suicide.