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CS PhD from Stanford in dynamic program analysis. Lost all my friends. Ghosted by companies for jobs directly related to my research. Everyone I knew who went d

CS PhD from Stanford in dynamic program analysis. Lost all my friends. Ghosted by companies for jobs directly related to my research. Everyone I knew who went directly into industry is doing way better than me. My salary has only tracked inflation. I sorely regret the decision and consider it to have fundamentally ruined my life beyond repair.

petargyurov 7y ago
> I sorely regret the decision and consider it to have fundamentally ruined my life beyond repair. This is an incredibly worrying statement; nobody should feel that way. Do you mind if I ask why you think it has not only ruined your life but so much that it is unrepairable?
pizza234 7y ago
Could you elaborate why you assume that your knowledge and skills can't be recycled in another (engineering) area?
- vbtemp 7y ago
  Not the OP, but often times people coming out of PhDs don't have applicable engineering skills that are used to deliver actual products to actual people. Getting results to put into a publication and delivering a product that people rely on are two skillsets that have very little to do with one another.
Nicholas_C 7y ago
This will sound rude and I’m sorry but there is no way your entire life is ruined because you decided to get a PhD from one of the top 5 most prestigious institutions in the entire world.
- scandox 7y ago
  As sort of rude as this is I have to agree. If your life can be fundamentally ruined by this then there's a major blindspot in play.
  - HyperTalk2 7y ago
    Oh look, victim blaming.
  - celticmusic 7y ago
    It's all about perspective. Also, I'm betting 5 years from now they no longer think that. Sometimes it's hard to see very far when you're in the weeds, but once you get to the other side it's easier to look back and realize it was absolutely worth doing, even with the challenges.
- seph-reed 7y ago
  I totally believe it. Debt sucks. Being smart (passed a certain point) sucks. Plus, think of the lock-in, losing friends, etc. Basically, he sold his soul, and I don't blame him for thinking he's not going to get it back.
  - geebee 7y ago
    I'm prepared to believe that going deeply into student debt can have this effect. It is a very insidious form of debt that can't be discharged through standard bankruptcy. My understanding is that it's possible to avoid this through TA or RA positions with tuition waivers, at least at reputable programs. So I think the question of debt should be considered somewhat separately (though not entirely separately, as this insidious form of debt doesn't existing the world of stupid mortgages or credit card irresponsibility, where at least you have the topic to collapse in bankruptcy and, 7+ years later, start anew. Forever debt lives in the hellacious realm of student loans, divorces, and Dickens novels). I mastered out of my PhD program, largely partly because I got a good job outside with money and fun projects, and partly because I was struggling academically. I do occasionally "wish" (eh, not really) that I had a PhD, but that's because I work in a university (although in a technical track). I accept that research positions aren't open to MS holders in Universities (or in some industry positions), but the degree ceiling definitely extends into non-research positions that would be available to MS (or BS or no degree) holders in non-university tracks. This, however, is my own deal. If I don't like it, I need to leave, so I wouldn't expect anyone to give this complaint much force.
  - wenc 7y ago
    There's typically no debt doing a STEM (Science, Tech, Engineering and Math) Ph.D. in most places, unless you're talking about undergrad debt. STEM Ph.D.s are like jobs. You get paid a stipend (the financial package typically requires you to work as a TA/RA). A few data points. My Ph.D. program paid me $30k/yr tax free over 4 years. Prestige scholarship holders were able to get even more, maybe $45k-50k. (my numbers are old -- I got my Ph.D. nearly a decade ago) I've had friends at Princeton who received packages in the range of $28k-$35k/yr from their engineering depts. Not a huge amount of money, but enough for a single grad student to survive on. I have a friend who did a Ph.D. in Math at Stanford, and he didn't have to pay cent. Debt is generally not a common issue for STEM Ph.Ds. Humanities/Social Science Ph.Ds. on the other hand are a completely different ball game. I've heard that many live in relative penury and rarely finish on-time (taking anywhere from 5-7 years). Humanities Ph.Ds. please add data points.
cujo 7y ago
> Ghosted by companies for jobs directly related to my research This is unexpected. What's going on there?
- zdragnar 7y ago
  If it's the same story as most other fields, the related jobs available require either: 1) No phd, because those either command a high salary, or are likely to jump ship for higher pay as soon as they meet qualification 2: 2) A phd and previous experience, because the job can't be trusted to someone fresh out of school without practical experience. That was more or less the story from all of my circa 2008 friends who graduated with bio/chem engineering type degrees, trying to decide between grad school or entering industry, at least...
- mattkrause 7y ago
  This has happened to me a bit too. Along with the factors that @zdragnar mentioned, funding for industrial R&D isn’t very stable either. One place I interviewed lost the contract that would have funded my position; another place with a lot of goverment projects decided to freeze hiring due to “political uncertainty.” Neither place was particularly upfront about this, but their decisions do make a bit of sense. There’s also a ton of misunderstandings between the academic and industrial folks. “Expert in machine learning” in a job posting might mean anything from “a few years experience” to “I literally wrote the book on this topic.” Likewise, it is also hard to present accomplishments in a way that impresses both sides. There’s certainly a lot of currently-empty room for specialized, savvy recruiters (and if you are one, looking for a neuro/ML person, let’s talk!)
- SkyPuncher 7y ago
  I have heard it anecdotally time and time again, "Overqualified". Specialization only pays more when there's demand for the exact specialization. Nobody wants to pay a PhD and risk them moving onto the "perfect" position when the same job can be done by somebody more generalized.
  - cujo 7y ago
    Couldn't OP just not list that on the resume/application? This seems like a solvable problem if it's as bad as they make it out.
BeetleB 7y ago
>I sorely regret the decision and consider it to have fundamentally ruined my life beyond repair. Are you sure you would not feel the same way had you gone straight to industry? Musing over those who stayed, got their PhDs, and are in fascinating, high paying jobs? My suggestion is that you try not to have an external locus of control. I spent 7 years in grad school, realized a PhD won't get me the job I was seeking, and quit. As a result, everything you say is also true for me, and I don't even have the degree to show for it. But I also know that grad school was a great time for me, and I did get most of what I wanted out of it. As for my not-so-great industry outcome, I do know I'm not really putting a huge amount of effort to improve it. The PhD is about the journey. The certificate at the end is just a technicality. Could it be that you valued the certificate more than the journey?
- mav3rick 7y ago
  It's also easier to have rewarding high paying career in the industry.
rolltiide 7y ago
Why not just take PhD off your resume and just say you were having a sabbatical
gatherhunterer 7y ago
Imagine telling any of the thousands of homeless people in the Bay Area that a Stanford PhD program “ruined my life beyond repair”. Maybe it is a lack of general life experience that is holding you back.
- HyperTalk2 7y ago
  You should be permanently banned for this vile, heartless, toxic comment directed at someone who appears to be suffering a great deal. Spare us your irrelevant whataboutisms regarding homeless people, stay on topic in the future and stop being a dick.
- deleted 7y ago
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appkate 7y ago
There are always people better than you in this world no matter you've a PhD or not but you can always find a niche market and grow your expertise there. Your friends maybe waiting for your call. Be proactive.
musicale 7y ago
It seems to me that as a Ph.D. you have, largely on your own, figured out how to solve some very hard problems and smash some very large rocks. The hard problems/big rocks you are faced with now have just changed somewhat: finding work you enjoy; making enough money and/or matching expenditures to income; forming/restoring friendships and social bonds. Those are very challenging problems, but they are solvable. Regarding being ghosted: 1) it's not you, it's the research job market and/or the the stupid way most companies hire people, and 2) companies routinely ghost applicants - it's incredibly rude but shockingly common. Job-hunting is a weird game but there are probably some winning strategies. And as Kierkegaard didn't say: "Get a Ph.D., and you will regret it; don't get a Ph.D., and you will also regret it; get a Ph.D. or do not get a Ph.D., you will regret it either way...This, gentlemen, is the essence of all [doctors of] Philosophy." ;-)
fouc 7y ago
Drop the PhD from your resume and try again?
musicale 7y ago
A quick google search says that grad students are 6 times more likely to experience depression than the general population, so that is something to keep in mind! And a survey at Berkeley (your rivals/colleagues across the bay) found nearly half of Ph.D. students showing signs of depression. https://www.chronicle.com/article/Grad-School-Is-Hard-on-Mental/240626 https://www.chronicle.com/article/Grad-School-Is-Hard-on-Men...

petargyurov 7y ago

> I sorely regret the decision and consider it to have fundamentally ruined my life beyond repair. This is an incredibly worrying statement; nobody should feel that way. Do you mind if I ask why you think it has not only ruined your life but so much that it is unrepairable?

pizza234 7y ago

Could you elaborate why you assume that your knowledge and skills can't be recycled in another (engineering) area?

vbtemp 7y ago
Not the OP, but often times people coming out of PhDs don't have applicable engineering skills that are used to deliver actual products to actual people. Getting results to put into a publication and delivering a product that people rely on are two skillsets that have very little to do with one another.

Nicholas_C 7y ago

This will sound rude and I’m sorry but there is no way your entire life is ruined because you decided to get a PhD from one of the top 5 most prestigious institutions in the entire world.

scandox 7y ago
As sort of rude as this is I have to agree. If your life can be fundamentally ruined by this then there's a major blindspot in play.
- HyperTalk2 7y ago
  Oh look, victim blaming.
- celticmusic 7y ago
  It's all about perspective. Also, I'm betting 5 years from now they no longer think that. Sometimes it's hard to see very far when you're in the weeds, but once you get to the other side it's easier to look back and realize it was absolutely worth doing, even with the challenges.
seph-reed 7y ago
I totally believe it. Debt sucks. Being smart (passed a certain point) sucks. Plus, think of the lock-in, losing friends, etc. Basically, he sold his soul, and I don't blame him for thinking he's not going to get it back.
- geebee 7y ago
  I'm prepared to believe that going deeply into student debt can have this effect. It is a very insidious form of debt that can't be discharged through standard bankruptcy. My understanding is that it's possible to avoid this through TA or RA positions with tuition waivers, at least at reputable programs. So I think the question of debt should be considered somewhat separately (though not entirely separately, as this insidious form of debt doesn't existing the world of stupid mortgages or credit card irresponsibility, where at least you have the topic to collapse in bankruptcy and, 7+ years later, start anew. Forever debt lives in the hellacious realm of student loans, divorces, and Dickens novels). I mastered out of my PhD program, largely partly because I got a good job outside with money and fun projects, and partly because I was struggling academically. I do occasionally "wish" (eh, not really) that I had a PhD, but that's because I work in a university (although in a technical track). I accept that research positions aren't open to MS holders in Universities (or in some industry positions), but the degree ceiling definitely extends into non-research positions that would be available to MS (or BS or no degree) holders in non-university tracks. This, however, is my own deal. If I don't like it, I need to leave, so I wouldn't expect anyone to give this complaint much force.
- wenc 7y ago
  There's typically no debt doing a STEM (Science, Tech, Engineering and Math) Ph.D. in most places, unless you're talking about undergrad debt. STEM Ph.D.s are like jobs. You get paid a stipend (the financial package typically requires you to work as a TA/RA). A few data points. My Ph.D. program paid me $30k/yr tax free over 4 years. Prestige scholarship holders were able to get even more, maybe $45k-50k. (my numbers are old -- I got my Ph.D. nearly a decade ago) I've had friends at Princeton who received packages in the range of $28k-$35k/yr from their engineering depts. Not a huge amount of money, but enough for a single grad student to survive on. I have a friend who did a Ph.D. in Math at Stanford, and he didn't have to pay cent. Debt is generally not a common issue for STEM Ph.Ds. Humanities/Social Science Ph.Ds. on the other hand are a completely different ball game. I've heard that many live in relative penury and rarely finish on-time (taking anywhere from 5-7 years). Humanities Ph.Ds. please add data points.

cujo 7y ago

> Ghosted by companies for jobs directly related to my research This is unexpected. What's going on there?

zdragnar 7y ago
If it's the same story as most other fields, the related jobs available require either: 1) No phd, because those either command a high salary, or are likely to jump ship for higher pay as soon as they meet qualification 2: 2) A phd and previous experience, because the job can't be trusted to someone fresh out of school without practical experience. That was more or less the story from all of my circa 2008 friends who graduated with bio/chem engineering type degrees, trying to decide between grad school or entering industry, at least...
mattkrause 7y ago
This has happened to me a bit too. Along with the factors that @zdragnar mentioned, funding for industrial R&D isn’t very stable either. One place I interviewed lost the contract that would have funded my position; another place with a lot of goverment projects decided to freeze hiring due to “political uncertainty.” Neither place was particularly upfront about this, but their decisions do make a bit of sense. There’s also a ton of misunderstandings between the academic and industrial folks. “Expert in machine learning” in a job posting might mean anything from “a few years experience” to “I literally wrote the book on this topic.” Likewise, it is also hard to present accomplishments in a way that impresses both sides. There’s certainly a lot of currently-empty room for specialized, savvy recruiters (and if you are one, looking for a neuro/ML person, let’s talk!)
SkyPuncher 7y ago
I have heard it anecdotally time and time again, "Overqualified". Specialization only pays more when there's demand for the exact specialization. Nobody wants to pay a PhD and risk them moving onto the "perfect" position when the same job can be done by somebody more generalized.
- cujo 7y ago
  Couldn't OP just not list that on the resume/application? This seems like a solvable problem if it's as bad as they make it out.

BeetleB 7y ago

>I sorely regret the decision and consider it to have fundamentally ruined my life beyond repair. Are you sure you would not feel the same way had you gone straight to industry? Musing over those who stayed, got their PhDs, and are in fascinating, high paying jobs? My suggestion is that you try not to have an external locus of control. I spent 7 years in grad school, realized a PhD won't get me the job I was seeking, and quit. As a result, everything you say is also true for me, and I don't even have the degree to show for it. But I also know that grad school was a great time for me, and I did get most of what I wanted out of it. As for my not-so-great industry outcome, I do know I'm not really putting a huge amount of effort to improve it. The PhD is about the journey. The certificate at the end is just a technicality. Could it be that you valued the certificate more than the journey?

mav3rick 7y ago
It's also easier to have rewarding high paying career in the industry.

rolltiide 7y ago

Why not just take PhD off your resume and just say you were having a sabbatical

gatherhunterer 7y ago

Imagine telling any of the thousands of homeless people in the Bay Area that a Stanford PhD program “ruined my life beyond repair”. Maybe it is a lack of general life experience that is holding you back.

HyperTalk2 7y ago
You should be permanently banned for this vile, heartless, toxic comment directed at someone who appears to be suffering a great deal. Spare us your irrelevant whataboutisms regarding homeless people, stay on topic in the future and stop being a dick.
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appkate 7y ago

There are always people better than you in this world no matter you've a PhD or not but you can always find a niche market and grow your expertise there. Your friends maybe waiting for your call. Be proactive.

musicale 7y ago

It seems to me that as a Ph.D. you have, largely on your own, figured out how to solve some very hard problems and smash some very large rocks. The hard problems/big rocks you are faced with now have just changed somewhat: finding work you enjoy; making enough money and/or matching expenditures to income; forming/restoring friendships and social bonds. Those are very challenging problems, but they are solvable. Regarding being ghosted: 1) it's not you, it's the research job market and/or the the stupid way most companies hire people, and 2) companies routinely ghost applicants - it's incredibly rude but shockingly common. Job-hunting is a weird game but there are probably some winning strategies. And as Kierkegaard didn't say: "Get a Ph.D., and you will regret it; don't get a Ph.D., and you will also regret it; get a Ph.D. or do not get a Ph.D., you will regret it either way...This, gentlemen, is the essence of all [doctors of] Philosophy." ;-)

fouc 7y ago

Drop the PhD from your resume and try again?

musicale 7y ago

A quick google search says that grad students are 6 times more likely to experience depression than the general population, so that is something to keep in mind! And a survey at Berkeley (your rivals/colleagues across the bay) found nearly half of Ph.D. students showing signs of depression. https://www.chronicle.com/article/Grad-School-Is-Hard-on-Mental/240626 https://www.chronicle.com/article/Grad-School-Is-Hard-on-Men...