4 ms·

Hm, really stupid naive question here. What happens if violating ships were basically seized

by esyir 7y ago

dsfyu404ed 7y ago
Shipping to/from/through the waters of whosoever is doing the seizing is going to get a lot more expensive.
- dredmorbius 7y ago
  Or, you know, the shipping companies could address that risk by complying with the relevant regulations.
dogma1138 7y ago
Well they don’t have a strong basis to seize the vessels, right of passage is tricky and the vessels don’t turn those on while in territorial waters. Open systems have a sufficiently large capacity to store the contaminated water so they essentially only open the loop in international waters where no one can do anything about it. But in general it depends on who does it, for the most part if it’s a western country the country would loose in court since it will he sued by multiple parties with interest in the cargo but no actual liability. If it’s not then it’s either going to be a political waltz or just another act of piracy. The ship and cargo are insured some parties might make more money on losing the ship than if it had completed its transit including quite possibly its operator.
- gruez 7y ago
  >Open systems have a sufficiently large capacity to store the contaminated water so they essentially only open the loop in international waters where no one can do anything about it. What about enacting a law that says "if you use cheating devices at all, you can't dock in our ports"?
  - dogma1138 7y ago
    >What about enacting a law that says "if you use cheating devices at all, you can't dock in our ports"? When 99.9% of vessels are doing the cheating, the shipping companies would say you would really like your people to go on a diet don’t you?
    - gbrown 7y ago
      So give it a several year phase-in period, and provide mechanisms to remove/permanently disable the systems.
      - dogma1138 7y ago
        That’s what has been done in this case which lead to cheating devices to be installed in the first place. It’s very hard to near impossible to do or enforce all it takes is a country just by you that is willing to accept them. People aren’t going to take a huge price hike and countries that are dependent on imports won’t ever enforce such requirements which would leave these vessels out there. At the end of the day unless you are willing to fund a fleet of 1000’s of new vessels and or pay to upgrade existing ones the shipping companies won’t budge and you won’t ever be able to push them into a corner since the economic fallout would be catastrophic for you but not much for them.
        gruez 7y ago
        >It’s very hard to near impossible to do or enforce all it takes is a country just by you that is willing to accept them. You can set up treaties with your neighbors to enforce the same regulations. Also, if your country is sufficiently large enough, it's not really a concern because any savings from not having to follow the regulations will be wiped out by the increased cost in transporting the goods across the border. You could also impose a tariff/charge on goods that transit through a neighboring country for no apparent reason (eg. China -> Mexico -> LA rather than China -> LA). >People aren’t going to take a huge price hike Source on the huge price hike? According to http://www.worldshipping.org/benefits-of-liner-shipping/global-economic-engine http://www.worldshipping.org/benefits-of-liner-shipping/glob..., the shipping industry contributes 183.3B to global GDP, and transports more than 4T worth of goods. Based on that, shipping accounts for approximately 4.5% of the cost of goods. Therefore, a 50% increase in cost because of emissions controls (very generous estimate) would only cause a 2.2% increase in the price of goods. >and countries that are dependent on imports won’t ever enforce such requirements which would leave these vessels out there. If it's announced years in advance, either shipping companies would adapt and get the vessels ready before the regulations take effect, or local manufacturers come online now that they're more competitive. No ships is ever going to be "stuck".
dredmorbius 7y ago
"Ship arrest" is a legal concept: https://www.marineinsight.com/maritime-law/ship-arrest-under-maritime-law-reasons-procedure-and-precautions/amp/ https://www.marineinsight.com/maritime-law/ship-arrest-under... And no, I don't know much about it beyond the term and what's at the link above, but failure to abide by regulations is an allowable condition of arrest.

Hm, really stupid naive question here. What happens if violating ships were basically seized

by esyir 7y ago

Hm, really stupid naive question here. What happens if violating ships were basically seized

dsfyu404ed 7y ago

Shipping to/from/through the waters of whosoever is doing the seizing is going to get a lot more expensive.

dredmorbius 7y ago
Or, you know, the shipping companies could address that risk by complying with the relevant regulations.

dogma1138 7y ago

Well they don’t have a strong basis to seize the vessels, right of passage is tricky and the vessels don’t turn those on while in territorial waters. Open systems have a sufficiently large capacity to store the contaminated water so they essentially only open the loop in international waters where no one can do anything about it. But in general it depends on who does it, for the most part if it’s a western country the country would loose in court since it will he sued by multiple parties with interest in the cargo but no actual liability. If it’s not then it’s either going to be a political waltz or just another act of piracy. The ship and cargo are insured some parties might make more money on losing the ship than if it had completed its transit including quite possibly its operator.

gruez 7y ago
>Open systems have a sufficiently large capacity to store the contaminated water so they essentially only open the loop in international waters where no one can do anything about it. What about enacting a law that says "if you use cheating devices at all, you can't dock in our ports"?
- dogma1138 7y ago
  >What about enacting a law that says "if you use cheating devices at all, you can't dock in our ports"? When 99.9% of vessels are doing the cheating, the shipping companies would say you would really like your people to go on a diet don’t you?
  - gbrown 7y ago
    So give it a several year phase-in period, and provide mechanisms to remove/permanently disable the systems.
    - dogma1138 7y ago
      That’s what has been done in this case which lead to cheating devices to be installed in the first place. It’s very hard to near impossible to do or enforce all it takes is a country just by you that is willing to accept them. People aren’t going to take a huge price hike and countries that are dependent on imports won’t ever enforce such requirements which would leave these vessels out there. At the end of the day unless you are willing to fund a fleet of 1000’s of new vessels and or pay to upgrade existing ones the shipping companies won’t budge and you won’t ever be able to push them into a corner since the economic fallout would be catastrophic for you but not much for them.
      - gruez 7y ago
        >It’s very hard to near impossible to do or enforce all it takes is a country just by you that is willing to accept them. You can set up treaties with your neighbors to enforce the same regulations. Also, if your country is sufficiently large enough, it's not really a concern because any savings from not having to follow the regulations will be wiped out by the increased cost in transporting the goods across the border. You could also impose a tariff/charge on goods that transit through a neighboring country for no apparent reason (eg. China -> Mexico -> LA rather than China -> LA). >People aren’t going to take a huge price hike Source on the huge price hike? According to http://www.worldshipping.org/benefits-of-liner-shipping/global-economic-engine http://www.worldshipping.org/benefits-of-liner-shipping/glob..., the shipping industry contributes 183.3B to global GDP, and transports more than 4T worth of goods. Based on that, shipping accounts for approximately 4.5% of the cost of goods. Therefore, a 50% increase in cost because of emissions controls (very generous estimate) would only cause a 2.2% increase in the price of goods. >and countries that are dependent on imports won’t ever enforce such requirements which would leave these vessels out there. If it's announced years in advance, either shipping companies would adapt and get the vessels ready before the regulations take effect, or local manufacturers come online now that they're more competitive. No ships is ever going to be "stuck".

dredmorbius 7y ago

"Ship arrest" is a legal concept: https://www.marineinsight.com/maritime-law/ship-arrest-under-maritime-law-reasons-procedure-and-precautions/amp/ https://www.marineinsight.com/maritime-law/ship-arrest-under... And no, I don't know much about it beyond the term and what's at the link above, but failure to abide by regulations is an allowable condition of arrest.