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> No. None of the things you mention is actually the issue. > Diversity: It's not about opinion, but about an authority figure doing things that harm his colle

> No. None of the things you mention is actually the issue. > Diversity: It's not about opinion, but about an authority figure doing things that harm his colleagues. I could have the opinion that you're an idiot and a liar, but if we were working together and I would constantly say that in the workplace where everyone hears, I would probably get fired. > Inclusiveness: It's not about ostracising, either, certainly not because of some mental disability. If someone harms his coworkers and won't stop, they cannot continue working. > Fairness: Again, the problem is not opinions but harmful actions. It certainly isn't about conformity. Harming the people you work with is not some sign of genius conducive to creativity. > I think that too many people are expressing strong opinions on the matter of sexual harassment and sexual assault without having studied the subject at all. Those are opinions based on deep ignorance of the matter. I don't understand how any of this applies to Stallman. As far as I've gathered, most of the outrage against him are due to a few different posts over the last couple decades. Regardless of how morally reprehensible you think his views are, he's not saying them "constantly" and his actions certainly don't fit "harm his coworkers and won't stop". Also you say it's about "harmful actions", but what harmful actions has he done? I ask this honestly and would like to know. edit: Cleaned up the formatting of quotes.

ziofill 7y ago
The ability to brush off the words of a respected superior (parent, manager, supervisor, etc...) is not equally distributed in the population. Female students have a disadvantage over male students, especially in fields that are male-dominated (such as CS or Physics), LGBT members are even more disadvantaged. The harm is in the compounding of a hostile environment, and when the hostility comes from a person of considerable power such as the famous Stallman, the hit is all the worse. Don't take my word for it, there is a lot of research on these social dynamics.
- mieseratte 7y ago
  > Don't take my word for it, there is a lot of research on these social dynamics. Well unless you cite the research, the only option you've given us is to take your word.
  - ziofill 7y ago
    As if you'd go and read it ;)
- CogitoCogito 7y ago
  > The ability to brush off the words of a respected superior (parent, manager, supervisor, etc...) is not equally distributed in the population. Female students have a disadvantage over male students, especially in fields that are male-dominated (such as CS or Physics), LGBT members are even more disadvantaged. The harm is in the compounding of a hostile environment, and when the hostility comes from a person of considerable power such as the famous Stallman, the hit is all the worse. Don't take my word for it, there is a lot of research on these social dynamics. So the answer is that a respected person may not ever have any opinion that can be construed as offensive ever in their entire life? I mean in this case Stallman didn't even go to any effort to spread these ideas around. The fact that they are even known is due to the articles written about a few posts spread over the last couple decades. Also I'm a little unclear about your references to female students and LGBT members...weren't the posts that people took offense to mostly regarding pedophelia? Did I miss his other writings?
- coldtea 7y ago
  >The ability to brush off the words of a respected superior (parent, manager, supervisor, etc...) is not equally distributed in the population. Female students have a disadvantage over male students, especially in fields that are male-dominated (such as CS or Physics), LGBT members are even more disadvantaged. They might have been in the 70s and 80s. In 2019, if a LGBT member makes some threats, the institution will usually cave. In the old times people could lose their job if they were found out to be LGBT. Today people lose their jobs if they are accused from an LGBT perspective. Pretending the power dynamics are the same as in decades past is hypocritical. Parents, relatives, and rural societies can still be (and are) cruel against LBGT people. Major companies, institutions, the law, modern media, etc? Not so much. Too many people champion LGBT rights, feminism, etc today only because it's the default in "polite society" and the circles of power. If it was 1970 they would have followed the then mainstream treatment of women/LGBT, either like sheep or to their advantage -- as in fact, the majority (their parents) then did. Doesn't matter if they're different people than their parents -- the hypocrisy and the mechanism is the same is the same. Only few courageous people have written/spoke out for decades about such matters, and now people come and use them to pursue careers, or gain followers -- and even more so, many use those causes to be cruel to people and gain power and social capital, the same way they would use their privilege against women/LGBT back in the day... It's like Kurt Cobain seeing all the BS jocks that put him down sing "Smells like teen spirit"... As for the "lots of research", in social studies it takes time to catch up with society (and it follows what brings in grants). There was lots of research back in the day too...
rimliu 7y ago
You can start here: https://medium.com/@selamjie/remove-richard-stallman-appendix-a-a7e41e784f88 https://medium.com/@selamjie/remove-richard-stallman-appendi...
- CogitoCogito 7y ago
  > You can start here: https://medium.com/@selamjie/remove-richard-stallman-appendix-a-a7e41e784f88 https://medium.com/@selamjie/remove-richard-stallman-appendi... Start with what exactly? What is this in response to?
  - TeMPOraL 7y ago
    This is a follow-up post of the blogger that started the RMS witch hunt.
    - pron 7y ago
      According to his closest colleagues, there was no witch hunt, but a high-profile incident that drew attention to literally decades of problems: https://medium.com/@thomas.bushnell/a-reflection-on-the-departure-of-rms-18e6a835fd84 https://medium.com/@thomas.bushnell/a-reflection-on-the-depa...
      - TeMPOraL 7y ago
        Sure there wasn't, no Vice and Forbes articles, no shitstorm all over Twitter and Mastodon, no angry blogposts full of bile spreading lies, no decades of problems suddenly drawing attention, no long HN threads. I must have imagined it.
        pron 7y ago
        Well, people actually familiar with the situation say that you have (at least the witch hunt aspect), so unless you know better than them, I'd say yeah. According to those actually familiar with the case, certain recent actions by Stallman drew attention to his problematic decades-long behavior, which finally resulted, after decades of ignored complaints, in his dismissal. There's no denying the well-established fact that the vast majority of cases of inappropriate behavior goes unpunished; in a few cases, some media attention can lead to action. The percentage of bad actors (and according to those closest to him, Stallman is a bad actor) that are finally disciplined remains, sadly, very low, but it's a start. There are always hysterics who cry about a PC mob or witch hunts, but those who are interested in the facts, take the time to Google for relevant studies, consider the numbers, and as those shrill claims just don't square with the facts, so are best ignored.
pron 7y ago
https://medium.com/@thomas.bushnell/a-reflection-on-the-departure-of-rms-18e6a835fd84 https://medium.com/@thomas.bushnell/a-reflection-on-the-depa...
- CogitoCogito 7y ago
  Thank you that was a very good and informative read.
  - pron 7y ago
    I will also tell you that research shows that the vast majority of sexual harassment and bullying complaints against powerful men go ignored for years. Then something happens that attracts wide public attention and some action is taken. At which point there's the usual choir chants of "witch hunt", "PC mob", and "this could happen to literally anyone" (the fact is that it rarely "happens" even to very real harassers), but invariably you find that the trigger, which may not be disastrous on its own, usually follows years of not decades of issues.

ziofill 7y ago

The ability to brush off the words of a respected superior (parent, manager, supervisor, etc...) is not equally distributed in the population. Female students have a disadvantage over male students, especially in fields that are male-dominated (such as CS or Physics), LGBT members are even more disadvantaged. The harm is in the compounding of a hostile environment, and when the hostility comes from a person of considerable power such as the famous Stallman, the hit is all the worse. Don't take my word for it, there is a lot of research on these social dynamics.

mieseratte 7y ago
> Don't take my word for it, there is a lot of research on these social dynamics. Well unless you cite the research, the only option you've given us is to take your word.
- ziofill 7y ago
  As if you'd go and read it ;)
CogitoCogito 7y ago
> The ability to brush off the words of a respected superior (parent, manager, supervisor, etc...) is not equally distributed in the population. Female students have a disadvantage over male students, especially in fields that are male-dominated (such as CS or Physics), LGBT members are even more disadvantaged. The harm is in the compounding of a hostile environment, and when the hostility comes from a person of considerable power such as the famous Stallman, the hit is all the worse. Don't take my word for it, there is a lot of research on these social dynamics. So the answer is that a respected person may not ever have any opinion that can be construed as offensive ever in their entire life? I mean in this case Stallman didn't even go to any effort to spread these ideas around. The fact that they are even known is due to the articles written about a few posts spread over the last couple decades. Also I'm a little unclear about your references to female students and LGBT members...weren't the posts that people took offense to mostly regarding pedophelia? Did I miss his other writings?
coldtea 7y ago
>The ability to brush off the words of a respected superior (parent, manager, supervisor, etc...) is not equally distributed in the population. Female students have a disadvantage over male students, especially in fields that are male-dominated (such as CS or Physics), LGBT members are even more disadvantaged. They might have been in the 70s and 80s. In 2019, if a LGBT member makes some threats, the institution will usually cave. In the old times people could lose their job if they were found out to be LGBT. Today people lose their jobs if they are accused from an LGBT perspective. Pretending the power dynamics are the same as in decades past is hypocritical. Parents, relatives, and rural societies can still be (and are) cruel against LBGT people. Major companies, institutions, the law, modern media, etc? Not so much. Too many people champion LGBT rights, feminism, etc today only because it's the default in "polite society" and the circles of power. If it was 1970 they would have followed the then mainstream treatment of women/LGBT, either like sheep or to their advantage -- as in fact, the majority (their parents) then did. Doesn't matter if they're different people than their parents -- the hypocrisy and the mechanism is the same is the same. Only few courageous people have written/spoke out for decades about such matters, and now people come and use them to pursue careers, or gain followers -- and even more so, many use those causes to be cruel to people and gain power and social capital, the same way they would use their privilege against women/LGBT back in the day... It's like Kurt Cobain seeing all the BS jocks that put him down sing "Smells like teen spirit"... As for the "lots of research", in social studies it takes time to catch up with society (and it follows what brings in grants). There was lots of research back in the day too...

rimliu 7y ago

You can start here: https://medium.com/@selamjie/remove-richard-stallman-appendix-a-a7e41e784f88 https://medium.com/@selamjie/remove-richard-stallman-appendi...

CogitoCogito 7y ago
> You can start here: https://medium.com/@selamjie/remove-richard-stallman-appendix-a-a7e41e784f88 https://medium.com/@selamjie/remove-richard-stallman-appendi... Start with what exactly? What is this in response to?
- TeMPOraL 7y ago
  This is a follow-up post of the blogger that started the RMS witch hunt.
  - pron 7y ago
    According to his closest colleagues, there was no witch hunt, but a high-profile incident that drew attention to literally decades of problems: https://medium.com/@thomas.bushnell/a-reflection-on-the-departure-of-rms-18e6a835fd84 https://medium.com/@thomas.bushnell/a-reflection-on-the-depa...
    - TeMPOraL 7y ago
      Sure there wasn't, no Vice and Forbes articles, no shitstorm all over Twitter and Mastodon, no angry blogposts full of bile spreading lies, no decades of problems suddenly drawing attention, no long HN threads. I must have imagined it.
      - pron 7y ago
        Well, people actually familiar with the situation say that you have (at least the witch hunt aspect), so unless you know better than them, I'd say yeah. According to those actually familiar with the case, certain recent actions by Stallman drew attention to his problematic decades-long behavior, which finally resulted, after decades of ignored complaints, in his dismissal. There's no denying the well-established fact that the vast majority of cases of inappropriate behavior goes unpunished; in a few cases, some media attention can lead to action. The percentage of bad actors (and according to those closest to him, Stallman is a bad actor) that are finally disciplined remains, sadly, very low, but it's a start. There are always hysterics who cry about a PC mob or witch hunts, but those who are interested in the facts, take the time to Google for relevant studies, consider the numbers, and as those shrill claims just don't square with the facts, so are best ignored.

pron 7y ago

https://medium.com/@thomas.bushnell/a-reflection-on-the-departure-of-rms-18e6a835fd84 https://medium.com/@thomas.bushnell/a-reflection-on-the-depa...

CogitoCogito 7y ago
Thank you that was a very good and informative read.
- pron 7y ago
  I will also tell you that research shows that the vast majority of sexual harassment and bullying complaints against powerful men go ignored for years. Then something happens that attracts wide public attention and some action is taken. At which point there's the usual choir chants of "witch hunt", "PC mob", and "this could happen to literally anyone" (the fact is that it rarely "happens" even to very real harassers), but invariably you find that the trigger, which may not be disastrous on its own, usually follows years of not decades of issues.