4 ms·

Sexist -> awkward -> long hair is quite a series of leaps, and I'm mighty curious as to the underlying mental model. You appear to be implying that women might

by dTal 7y ago

Sexist -> awkward -> long hair is quite a series of leaps, and I'm mighty curious as to the underlying mental model. You appear to be implying that women might not want to go into IT because the men are unattractive. But unattractive is not the same as hostile. If you enjoy something, ugly people won't keep you away. Of note is that the percentage of open source programmers who are women is half that of the broader industry, despite open source programming generally involving less face-to-face interaction. Surely, if women were scared away by ugly creepy nerds, the safety from behind a screen and absence of compelled personal interaction would tend to bring them out? It would seem to be suggestive that far fewer women enjoy doing that sort of thing for fun. Incidentally, we have a nursing shortage. The incidence of male nurses is similarly low to female programmers. I find it amusing that no one hand wrings about this, or would dare make comments like "maybe men don't want to be nurses because nurses are ugly".

hutzlibu 7y ago
I have long hair myself. But I wash it. At university .. I got the impression that quite some people forgot that. Regulary. Also to wash clothes. There is a difference between unattractive and disgusting. And I love open source and fresh air. But I did not enjoy some linux convention for example, because I seemed to be the only one, who minded the bad, worn out air in the rooms. So all of this I find offputting, I suppose is putting of women as well. What is the problem with more hygiene and fresh air and more sensitivity? And the number of male nurses is increasing.
- dTal 7y ago
  Why would it disproportionately put off women?
  - hutzlibu 7y ago
    Because in general women take care more about their outfit? Why? Complex, I guess. But also not too interesting to me. I am more interested in motivating people in IT towards a healthier live style in general.
stakhanov 7y ago
...I agree. I find it disturbing, how quick women are to bring up notions like "awkward" and "creepy" in discussions such as this. 80% of "awkward" is about social interactions unfolding in a way that are outside the norm. 80% of "creepy" is about being unattractive. Not being socialized to conform with the norms is mostly a function of your childhood upbringing. Not being attractive is a function of your genes. Both are elements of a destiny that is cast upon you from outside and not within your control, like what gender you are born into. I don't see at all how an environment full of unattractive and not well-socialized people create an environment that is in any way hostile to women. But superficial people who, when female, will play the feminism card against people who happen to be unattractive and not well-socialized do create a hostile work environment for the latter group.
- hutzlibu 7y ago
  "Not being attractive is a function of your genes" No. Genes play a role, but attractiveness is not so much about looks as it is about confidence and self esteem (and smell, of course). I was considered very ugly in my youth. And yes, I compensated with computers. I did not got much experience with girls in teenage years. Then I traveled, studied and grew in my mind and confidence. And today, well, lets just say, sometimes I am still confused, when very attractive women flirt with me, as my old me would have considered them to be way out of league. Now I know how to play the game, so to say, but in the beginning, I know I hurt quite some feelings and was probably considered arrogant, when I simply did not know how to respond. So, I got out of the basement. But: "I don't see at all how an environment full of unattractive and not well-socialized people create an environment that is in any way hostile to women." many nerds never did. They long for women, but never learned the game and sometimes think, they are too ugly etc. bullshit. So when you have lots of men with unfullfiled desires and weak confidence or knowledge regarding women ... then yes, they act awkward towards women. They would like to bond, but don't knowmhow and think they never can. So not hostile, but awkward, so quite some women feel uncomfortable and rather leave. Now to be clear, no, not every IT nerd is like this. But too many. I was one of them once.
  - stakhanov 7y ago

by dTal 7y ago

hutzlibu 7y ago

I have long hair myself. But I wash it. At university .. I got the impression that quite some people forgot that. Regulary. Also to wash clothes. There is a difference between unattractive and disgusting. And I love open source and fresh air. But I did not enjoy some linux convention for example, because I seemed to be the only one, who minded the bad, worn out air in the rooms. So all of this I find offputting, I suppose is putting of women as well. What is the problem with more hygiene and fresh air and more sensitivity? And the number of male nurses is increasing.

dTal 7y ago
Why would it disproportionately put off women?
- hutzlibu 7y ago
  Because in general women take care more about their outfit? Why? Complex, I guess. But also not too interesting to me. I am more interested in motivating people in IT towards a healthier live style in general.

stakhanov 7y ago

...I agree. I find it disturbing, how quick women are to bring up notions like "awkward" and "creepy" in discussions such as this. 80% of "awkward" is about social interactions unfolding in a way that are outside the norm. 80% of "creepy" is about being unattractive. Not being socialized to conform with the norms is mostly a function of your childhood upbringing. Not being attractive is a function of your genes. Both are elements of a destiny that is cast upon you from outside and not within your control, like what gender you are born into. I don't see at all how an environment full of unattractive and not well-socialized people create an environment that is in any way hostile to women. But superficial people who, when female, will play the feminism card against people who happen to be unattractive and not well-socialized do create a hostile work environment for the latter group.

hutzlibu 7y ago
"Not being attractive is a function of your genes" No. Genes play a role, but attractiveness is not so much about looks as it is about confidence and self esteem (and smell, of course). I was considered very ugly in my youth. And yes, I compensated with computers. I did not got much experience with girls in teenage years. Then I traveled, studied and grew in my mind and confidence. And today, well, lets just say, sometimes I am still confused, when very attractive women flirt with me, as my old me would have considered them to be way out of league. Now I know how to play the game, so to say, but in the beginning, I know I hurt quite some feelings and was probably considered arrogant, when I simply did not know how to respond. So, I got out of the basement. But: "I don't see at all how an environment full of unattractive and not well-socialized people create an environment that is in any way hostile to women." many nerds never did. They long for women, but never learned the game and sometimes think, they are too ugly etc. bullshit. So when you have lots of men with unfullfiled desires and weak confidence or knowledge regarding women ... then yes, they act awkward towards women. They would like to bond, but don't knowmhow and think they never can. So not hostile, but awkward, so quite some women feel uncomfortable and rather leave. Now to be clear, no, not every IT nerd is like this. But too many. I was one of them once.
- stakhanov 7y ago