5 ms·

He might’ve been an influential figure, but he’s still a creep. Just because someone made something once doesn’t mean we should turn a blind eye towards them.

toxicFork 7y ago
> What’s most disturbing about this is how many of my friends and peers support Stallman’s removal. At first it was because they took the false accusations at face value. When I pointed out that these accusations were lies, they supported Stallman’s removal for other reasons. They focused on his tone deaf communication style and awkward demeanor. They spoke of behavior from decades ago and pointed out the fact that he had a mattress in his office. (Apparently that’s where he often slept.) As far as I can tell, the worst allegations against Stallman involve him being a socially clueless aspie. He held his positions at MIT, GNU, and the FSF for over thirty years, and in that time nobody accused him of coercion, unwanted touching, or verbal harassment. If an occasional social gaffe or failed attempt at humor is all it takes to get thrown out on the street, nobody is safe.
- sascha_sl 7y ago
  the problem is a combination of being socially clueless but also being entirely unable to change because asking rms to change will escalate into an endless discussion about principles where he was always justified, no matter the topic, so people stopped trying at some point and went for plant defense[1] instead. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Richard_Stallman/Archive_8#Stallman's_plant-phobia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Richard_Stallman/Archive_...
  - toxicFork 7y ago
    I believe the point of the article is that the personality that is resistant to change may be useful when this person believes in an idea (free software, privacy, etc). When they are confronted about the idea they will also not be willing to change. Then the ideas can develop themselves to become reality. Of course when this rigidity comes to social behavior this may be an issue. To go a bit philosophical: I wonder if we can truly be rigid in some aspects and flexible in others. I guess this can be taught.
computerex 7y ago
How is he a creep and what did he do to justify how he was treated? Did you read his comment about his defense of Marvin Lee Minsky? Precisely what was creepy or wrong about it?
- asutekku 7y ago
  It is not an isolated incident. There are multiple documented cases of him behaving like a creep and spouting "controversial" statements.
  - computerex 7y ago
    1. What's your evidence? Where are these "documented" cases? 2. What incident are you referring to? His comments that led to his removal were about language and preciseness. Did you read his comment? Are you sure you know what the background/context is here?
  - rndgermandude 7y ago
    Name them please? The "creep" incidents, that is.
    - asutekku 7y ago
      Here's a thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/_sagesharp_/status/1173637138413318144 https://mobile.twitter.com/_sagesharp_/status/11736371384133...
      - computerex 7y ago
        Can you please read the thread yourself and point out to specific instances you are referring to? Because there is a lot of false information in this thread, like so: > Last week, on a private MIT mailing list, Richard Stallman argued that a sex trafficking survivor may have "willingly" presented herself, and thus Minksey hadn't really committed sexual assault. That being coerced by Epstein made it not rape. Which is flat out wrong, and something that the article here explicitly demonstrates why it's false. Did you read the "Defense of Richard Stallman" article presented here in this thread?
sascha_sl 7y ago
before someone goes into a defensive rage... rms being a creep and particularly women at MIT going to great lengths to avoid him is well documented these remarks, while slightly distorted by the media, are still part of a pattern of dismissing sexual assault (including the way RMS insists on not using the word assault despite it being well understood that assault does not have to be physical violence) rms is the sort of person who overshoots principled to a point everyone is tired of talking to them and where in-person criticism dies before it is even expressed because why bother with someone who will never seek to be better anyway and that afforded him a lot of leeway, even if i think the means of removing him now have been not entirely clean, it still was overdue
- goatinaboat 7y ago
  women at MIT going to great lengths to avoid him is well documented Genuine question: where is this documented? I have been using GNU stuff for 25 years and until now have never heard about this. Do you have links to reputable sources?
  - foldr 7y ago
    https://www.reddit.com/r/justneckbeardthings/comments/2vkeze/he_calls_it_his_pleasure_card/ https://www.reddit.com/r/justneckbeardthings/comments/2vkeze...
    - doubleunplussed 7y ago
      So are weird polyamorous people who are into "cuddle puddles" committing sexual assault or something similar by advertising that fact? It seems to me that Stallman advertising that he likes cuddles is automatically considered creepy, beyond the pale, whereas if a properly woke community of appropriately diverse individuals did the same, it would be just considered part of that culture and accepted. What's more, Stallman used to be part of what that community used to be. He is a hippie. I bet people not up to speed on him reading about this incident assume he's an alt-righter who voted for Trump, but he supports Bernie Sanders, says that Australians should vote for the Greens, and advocates for weird gender-neutral pronouns. And he likes cuddles and dared to advertise that fact! I acknowledge that putting that on a business card is out of line in today's culture, but god I wish it wasn't. If you are creeped out by an old man wanting cuddles, but you wouldn't if it were someone else, then you are a bigot. And if you're creeped out any people at all advertising that they like cuddles, then that is stifling and the future is going to be bland and full of lonely people.
Frans-Willem 7y ago
The article also clearly states "As far as I can tell, the worst allegations against Stallman involve him being a socially clueless aspie", which I believe matches your "he's still a creep". I tend to agree, he's not a socially well adjusted person. But did that really interfere with his work for the FSF? From what I can gather, he did a pretty good job at it :-/
- equalunique 7y ago
  In a sense, the concept of the GPL is evidence of social mastery over mal-adjustment.
squarefoot 7y ago
Many brilliant people developed earlier unusual if not antisocial behaviour as a result of being estranged and often derided by others because of them being smarter. Or should we really dismiss all technical work by Leonardo Da Vinci because it was later revealed that he was a pedophile? Stallman did nothing like that, he just made some comments everyone should avoid in today's new middle ages, yet he is treated like a criminal. He failed to realize there are snipers out there, possibly paid ones, waiting for the six lines that could make an argument for hanging him, and he gave them those six lines: that's his only fault. The FOSS community will have to watch very closely who is going to benefit from his departure.
eej2ya1K 7y ago
Stop lying.

toxicFork 7y ago

> What’s most disturbing about this is how many of my friends and peers support Stallman’s removal. At first it was because they took the false accusations at face value. When I pointed out that these accusations were lies, they supported Stallman’s removal for other reasons. They focused on his tone deaf communication style and awkward demeanor. They spoke of behavior from decades ago and pointed out the fact that he had a mattress in his office. (Apparently that’s where he often slept.) As far as I can tell, the worst allegations against Stallman involve him being a socially clueless aspie. He held his positions at MIT, GNU, and the FSF for over thirty years, and in that time nobody accused him of coercion, unwanted touching, or verbal harassment. If an occasional social gaffe or failed attempt at humor is all it takes to get thrown out on the street, nobody is safe.

sascha_sl 7y ago
the problem is a combination of being socially clueless but also being entirely unable to change because asking rms to change will escalate into an endless discussion about principles where he was always justified, no matter the topic, so people stopped trying at some point and went for plant defense[1] instead. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Richard_Stallman/Archive_8#Stallman's_plant-phobia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Richard_Stallman/Archive_...
- toxicFork 7y ago
  I believe the point of the article is that the personality that is resistant to change may be useful when this person believes in an idea (free software, privacy, etc). When they are confronted about the idea they will also not be willing to change. Then the ideas can develop themselves to become reality. Of course when this rigidity comes to social behavior this may be an issue. To go a bit philosophical: I wonder if we can truly be rigid in some aspects and flexible in others. I guess this can be taught.

computerex 7y ago

How is he a creep and what did he do to justify how he was treated? Did you read his comment about his defense of Marvin Lee Minsky? Precisely what was creepy or wrong about it?

asutekku 7y ago
It is not an isolated incident. There are multiple documented cases of him behaving like a creep and spouting "controversial" statements.
- computerex 7y ago
  1. What's your evidence? Where are these "documented" cases? 2. What incident are you referring to? His comments that led to his removal were about language and preciseness. Did you read his comment? Are you sure you know what the background/context is here?
- rndgermandude 7y ago
  Name them please? The "creep" incidents, that is.
  - asutekku 7y ago
    Here's a thread: https://mobile.twitter.com/_sagesharp_/status/1173637138413318144 https://mobile.twitter.com/_sagesharp_/status/11736371384133...
    - computerex 7y ago
      Can you please read the thread yourself and point out to specific instances you are referring to? Because there is a lot of false information in this thread, like so: > Last week, on a private MIT mailing list, Richard Stallman argued that a sex trafficking survivor may have "willingly" presented herself, and thus Minksey hadn't really committed sexual assault. That being coerced by Epstein made it not rape. Which is flat out wrong, and something that the article here explicitly demonstrates why it's false. Did you read the "Defense of Richard Stallman" article presented here in this thread?

sascha_sl 7y ago

before someone goes into a defensive rage... rms being a creep and particularly women at MIT going to great lengths to avoid him is well documented these remarks, while slightly distorted by the media, are still part of a pattern of dismissing sexual assault (including the way RMS insists on not using the word assault despite it being well understood that assault does not have to be physical violence) rms is the sort of person who overshoots principled to a point everyone is tired of talking to them and where in-person criticism dies before it is even expressed because why bother with someone who will never seek to be better anyway and that afforded him a lot of leeway, even if i think the means of removing him now have been not entirely clean, it still was overdue

goatinaboat 7y ago
women at MIT going to great lengths to avoid him is well documented Genuine question: where is this documented? I have been using GNU stuff for 25 years and until now have never heard about this. Do you have links to reputable sources?
- foldr 7y ago
  https://www.reddit.com/r/justneckbeardthings/comments/2vkeze/he_calls_it_his_pleasure_card/ https://www.reddit.com/r/justneckbeardthings/comments/2vkeze...
  - doubleunplussed 7y ago
    So are weird polyamorous people who are into "cuddle puddles" committing sexual assault or something similar by advertising that fact? It seems to me that Stallman advertising that he likes cuddles is automatically considered creepy, beyond the pale, whereas if a properly woke community of appropriately diverse individuals did the same, it would be just considered part of that culture and accepted. What's more, Stallman used to be part of what that community used to be. He is a hippie. I bet people not up to speed on him reading about this incident assume he's an alt-righter who voted for Trump, but he supports Bernie Sanders, says that Australians should vote for the Greens, and advocates for weird gender-neutral pronouns. And he likes cuddles and dared to advertise that fact! I acknowledge that putting that on a business card is out of line in today's culture, but god I wish it wasn't. If you are creeped out by an old man wanting cuddles, but you wouldn't if it were someone else, then you are a bigot. And if you're creeped out any people at all advertising that they like cuddles, then that is stifling and the future is going to be bland and full of lonely people.

Frans-Willem 7y ago

The article also clearly states "As far as I can tell, the worst allegations against Stallman involve him being a socially clueless aspie", which I believe matches your "he's still a creep". I tend to agree, he's not a socially well adjusted person. But did that really interfere with his work for the FSF? From what I can gather, he did a pretty good job at it :-/

equalunique 7y ago
In a sense, the concept of the GPL is evidence of social mastery over mal-adjustment.

squarefoot 7y ago

Many brilliant people developed earlier unusual if not antisocial behaviour as a result of being estranged and often derided by others because of them being smarter. Or should we really dismiss all technical work by Leonardo Da Vinci because it was later revealed that he was a pedophile? Stallman did nothing like that, he just made some comments everyone should avoid in today's new middle ages, yet he is treated like a criminal. He failed to realize there are snipers out there, possibly paid ones, waiting for the six lines that could make an argument for hanging him, and he gave them those six lines: that's his only fault. The FOSS community will have to watch very closely who is going to benefit from his departure.

eej2ya1K 7y ago

Stop lying.