4 ms·

Did the cost of rent, medical care and college go down?

keiferski 7y ago
No, they've gone up - but my point is that the baseline costs for raising a child in average, decent-quality conditions (in today's terms) are still drastically lower than even the lowest of salaries. We've simply come to expect all kinds of consumerist goods as "required." Furthermore, even a "poor" childhood today is materially leagues above the average child of 100 years ago. That's not to say we should aim to return to that, but simply that there are a lot of "needs" which are really "wants." Housing is a good example. Yes, housing prices in coastal cities have spiraled out of the reach of middle class people. Yet, there are thousands, even tens of thousands, of affordable cities all throughout the South and Midwest. The "problem" with those areas is that they are perceived as undesirable places to live. Again - a want, not a need. The issue of inequality is a separate one and not the direct point that I am making. I'm simply saying that throughout all of human history, people were far poorer and yet still had children. Even today, the majority of the world's population is poorer than the poorest in the west. Clearly the main reason Western people aren't having kids today is not because they legitimately can't afford it - there are other cultural factors at play.
- pytester 7y ago
  >No, they've gone up - but my point is that the baseline costs for raising a child in average, decent-quality conditions (in today's terms) are still drastically lower than even the lowest of salaries I don't see how that can be if the core costs - rent, medical care, education have all skyrocketed. Diapers going down in price by 15% doesn't really help if at the same the price of college goes from $15k to $150k.
  - keiferski 7y ago
    Again, a college that costs $150k is a want, not a need. There are plenty of opportunities to go to community college, gain credits in high school, etc.
    - pytester 7y ago
      Even if you do consider college a want (which is highly dubious in today's wage earning environment and with competition from globalization that didn't exist before), rent and medical care are the furthest possible thing from want.
      - keiferski 7y ago
        Again, rent in cities that aren’t the hot, desirable coastal ones is quite reasonable and has been for a considerable amount of time. And as I just mentioned, there are a plethora of ways to earn a college degree without spending $150,000.
        pytester 7y ago
        >Again, rent in cities that aren’t the hot, desirable coastal ones is quite reasonable Wages are shit in a lottt of those places. Rents are reasonable as a % of SF programmer income I suppose, but the picture is a little different if it's mostly walmart jobs or nothing available.
- watwut 7y ago
  100 years ago is right after first world war. The kids were dying a lot and what was acceptable back then would caused CPS calls on you. It is not merely "want" to keep up with legal standards. Moreover, the world back then was pretty violent and kids were violent or delinquent too, especially when looking at Europe. There was quite a lot of price to be paid for situation back then. The areas with high unemployment and high social problems are perceived as undesirable places to live in for a reason. Of course I don't need to live in area with low alcoholism rates, low unemployment and low amount of social problems. But I want to live there for good reasons, namely better chance for me and my kids to not become unemployed and hopeless.
  - keiferski 7y ago
    The entire South and Midwest have social problems?
    - watwut 7y ago
      The places where people don't go tend to have more of them. People don't go there for a reason. The entire South and Midwest have places where people do go. What you don't have is a paradise where everything is cheap, there is a lot of employment and other opportunities and people somehow refuse to go to in the long term. You have cheap places where there is basically single major employer or low earning industry. I am not saying that people always have it perfectly right, but in the long term and on average, the mass moves where it makes sense to move to. Those places then become more expensive.
- selfishgene 7y ago
  "Yes, housing prices in coastal cities have spiraled out of the reach of middle class people." But that's where the jobs are for many people.

No, they've gone up - but my point is that the baseline costs for raising a child in average, decent-quality conditions (in today's terms) are still drastically lower than even the lowest of salaries. We've simply come to expect all kinds of consumerist goods as "required." Furthermore, even a "poor" childhood today is materially leagues above the average child of 100 years ago. That's not to say we should aim to return to that, but simply that there are a lot of "needs" which are really "wants." Housing is a good example. Yes, housing prices in coastal cities have spiraled out of the reach of middle class people. Yet, there are thousands, even tens of thousands, of affordable cities all throughout the South and Midwest. The "problem" with those areas is that they are perceived as undesirable places to live. Again - a want, not a need. The issue of inequality is a separate one and not the direct point that I am making. I'm simply saying that throughout all of human history, people were far poorer and yet still had children. Even today, the majority of the world's population is poorer than the poorest in the west. Clearly the main reason Western people aren't having kids today is not because they legitimately can't afford it - there are other cultural factors at play.

pytester 7y ago
>No, they've gone up - but my point is that the baseline costs for raising a child in average, decent-quality conditions (in today's terms) are still drastically lower than even the lowest of salaries I don't see how that can be if the core costs - rent, medical care, education have all skyrocketed. Diapers going down in price by 15% doesn't really help if at the same the price of college goes from $15k to $150k.
- keiferski 7y ago
  Again, a college that costs $150k is a want, not a need. There are plenty of opportunities to go to community college, gain credits in high school, etc.
  - pytester 7y ago
    Even if you do consider college a want (which is highly dubious in today's wage earning environment and with competition from globalization that didn't exist before), rent and medical care are the furthest possible thing from want.
    - keiferski 7y ago
      Again, rent in cities that aren’t the hot, desirable coastal ones is quite reasonable and has been for a considerable amount of time. And as I just mentioned, there are a plethora of ways to earn a college degree without spending $150,000.
      - pytester 7y ago
        >Again, rent in cities that aren’t the hot, desirable coastal ones is quite reasonable Wages are shit in a lottt of those places. Rents are reasonable as a % of SF programmer income I suppose, but the picture is a little different if it's mostly walmart jobs or nothing available.
watwut 7y ago
100 years ago is right after first world war. The kids were dying a lot and what was acceptable back then would caused CPS calls on you. It is not merely "want" to keep up with legal standards. Moreover, the world back then was pretty violent and kids were violent or delinquent too, especially when looking at Europe. There was quite a lot of price to be paid for situation back then. The areas with high unemployment and high social problems are perceived as undesirable places to live in for a reason. Of course I don't need to live in area with low alcoholism rates, low unemployment and low amount of social problems. But I want to live there for good reasons, namely better chance for me and my kids to not become unemployed and hopeless.
- keiferski 7y ago
  The entire South and Midwest have social problems?
  - watwut 7y ago
    The places where people don't go tend to have more of them. People don't go there for a reason. The entire South and Midwest have places where people do go. What you don't have is a paradise where everything is cheap, there is a lot of employment and other opportunities and people somehow refuse to go to in the long term. You have cheap places where there is basically single major employer or low earning industry. I am not saying that people always have it perfectly right, but in the long term and on average, the mass moves where it makes sense to move to. Those places then become more expensive.
selfishgene 7y ago
"Yes, housing prices in coastal cities have spiraled out of the reach of middle class people." But that's where the jobs are for many people.