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That's a weak argument for antinatalism. The global middle class is much larger and more capable of supporting the necessities that children require. People con

That's a weak argument for antinatalism. The global middle class is much larger and more capable of supporting the necessities that children require. People consider upper middle class lifestyles table stakes for child raising, which is why they choose to opt out of the children having status tournament. Diapers and food are actually not that expensive, but toddler yoga, dual earner flexible childcare, private school and similar absolutely are.

analog31 7y ago
The risk of being destroyed financially if something goes wrong with your kids is sobering.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
DollarGuru 7y ago
Do you believe raising children should be an act of duty and self-sacrifice? While I would like to raise a family one day the idea of raising children with just being capable of supporting their necessities doesn't appeal to me at all. If I can't offer them the best start in life or be the parent I wish I had (due to a lack of resources) I would rather not have children.
- barry-cotter 7y ago
  Read Selfish Reasons to Have More Kids, Bryan Caplan. Most people are glad to have been born, most parents raise happy, healthy children in the industrialized world and in substantial parts of the world outside it, most children would rather have happy parents who spend time with them than more stuff and while you can effect how happy their childhood is you aren’t going to greatly effect their adult outcomes if you parent within the good enough to be allowed to adopt norms. The best start in life is a start.
  - DollarGuru 7y ago
    My parents kind of had children for selfish reasons and objectively speaking neither of them should have had children. Now as an adult I have issues that seem to stem from childhood emotional neglect that I struggle with. My sibling isn't that much better emotionally adjusted either. I wasn't a particularly happy child but neither of them noticed or paid much attention even when they could have.
    - barry-cotter 7y ago
      > My parents kind of had children for selfish reasons and objectively speaking neither of them should have had children. If you or your sibling regret being born I’m sorry for you.
    - rogerkirkness 7y ago
      I think that's an entirely valid experience, I don't think anyone is arguing having kids of a universal good, but it also can't be seen as a universal bad. Ideally, as close to 100% of people possible are in a position to make a good choice for themselves.
djrobstep 7y ago
This is nonsense born from classist contempt. Every day middle class people are struggling not with luxuries but with everyday essentials like housing. The correct response to this is not antinatalism but anticapitalism: Why should we have a system that systematically subjects people to financial hardship for having children? It's easily fixed with a sensibly-designed welfare state, but we don't have one because we'd rather be judgemental to the poor about wanting "luxuries" like a decent house to live in.
- TuringNYC 7y ago
  In the US, I’ve been hearing this point of view consistently amongst co-workers for almost two decades. But talk is cheap and if this was really something people wanted, especially the middle class, I imagine votes would go this way — in the US they do not. It doesn’t even seem to scratch the top 3 issues list.
  - djrobstep 7y ago
    People do not make these choices in a vacuum. They are determined by the limited options available to vote for, and the enormous media and cultural resources dedicated to convincing people to vote against their own interests.
- dr_dshiv 7y ago
  I feel like the main misconception propogated by this argument is the idea that to be pro-welfare, one must be anti capitalist. In fact, socialism (Viz., state support of human needs not met by market) and capitalism (Viz., state support of health of market economy) go hand in hand. Markets are healthier when states selectively intervene to manage externalities, shocks, unemployed, education, health. Of course devil is in the details, but the point here is that capitalism and socialism are two different axes and, hypothetically, the best society maximises both.
  - djrobstep 7y ago
    Capitalism doesn't mean "markets", just as socialism doesn't mean "not markets" (hence the existence of "market socialism" as a concept). The defining feature of capitalism is ownership of the means of production aka capital, by a capitalist class. Socialism is common ("social") ownership of the capital, and thus the abolition of the capitalist class.
watwut 7y ago
> Diapers and food are actually not that expensive, but toddler yoga, dual earner flexible childcare, private school and similar absolutely are. While toddle yoga is fluff for healthy children, it is not that expensive and baby exercising can help to the ones that have mild motoric issues. It is actually often something mom does also for herself so that her time is occupied and she meets other moms (social isolation sux, being in same room whole day sux). It is also literally mom seeing problem in her own mental state and taking steps to fix it before it affects her behavior toward kids and husband. When you are socially isolated and bored, you can stay home and be depressed or find a place with people and something that makes somewhat sense to do. Good school, healthcare and do actually matter, you know. So that the child has also middle class future. Good school also eases out situation for parent, as bad school means the parent have to re-teach, have to work around bullying and social pressures on child to be bully or not learn. Dual earner flexible childcare is something traditional man does not appreciate. But, mom who wants ability to fend for herself too if needed and not be dependent and helpless completely appreciates a lot. If nothing else for psychological reasons - staying home is depression inducing for a lot of reasons. And when husband dies or get sick or get unemployed, yeah, it matters a lot. > they choose to opt out of the children having status tournament Well, social status matter to people and always mattered. How others treat you matter a lot to you.
- n4r9 7y ago
  > While toddle yoga is fluff for healthy children, it is not that expensive I looked this up, near me in SW London it looks like the cheapest monthly membership is £45pm, which is less than an average gym membership, up to £100pm for unlimited classes. I'd go for it if it was a big benefit to the baby. > Good school, healthcare and do actually matter, you know. So that the child has also middle class future. I don't know if it's how it was intended but this is a concise & scathing description of how class structures become entrenched.
- seem_2211 7y ago
  > Good school, healthcare and do actually matter, you know. So that the child has also middle class future. Nail on the head. Virtue signal all you want, but I know that I'll be putting my money into making sure that any kids I have see a lot of these advantages.
paganel 7y ago
Just wanted to add that diapers are really expensive for lots of middle-class people from around the world. Baby food is also more expensive compared to food for grown-ups.
- dr_dshiv 7y ago
  Baby food makes no sense. Chew your own food and put it in baby's mouth, just like humans did for the past 100k+ years. Good for microbiome, too. Lazy parenting is (usually) good parenting.
  - barry-cotter 7y ago
    I would advise against that for anyone with oral herpes (cold sores) even if you’re not presenting. Also there’s a limited amount of food baby can eat when small. Don’t chew pizza and give that to a three month old.
- barry-cotter 7y ago
  Baby food is as expensive as finely chopped or mashed vegetables. It does not take long to mash carrots or potatoes. Even making meat paste is trivial with a blender. Diapers really are expensive but baby food should not be breaking the bank because they just don’t eat much. Unsalted mashed up vegetables and small portions of fish, egg or meat aren’t really expensive.
marble-drink 7y ago
I cannot find a woman who will be a full time mother after giving birth. I will not put my children into day care for 12 hours a day. I could afford to support a family in my own, but only with my very frugal and minimalist lifestyle (no fancy car, no expensive holidays, no eating at restaurants etc)
- Angostura 7y ago
  So you do what I did - marry a woman with a good career and become a stay at home dad. Even better if you have a skill set that allows you to do some work from home, around nap times to allow you to keep your eye in.
  - marble-drink 7y ago
    I firmly believe that the key to happiness is to do what you're good at. For me that means working and not raising children. I will never be a stay at home dad.
    - watwut 7y ago
      Yeah, you are totally different from women who want to work. In their case it is selfishness and wanting things most people can easily live without. In your case it is because work gives you happiness and totally nothing to do with material things. Majority of women live without expensive holidays and expensive cars. Majority of men live without expensive car and men are more car-focused and tend to be the ones who control the car when car is in family. Most people, neither males nor females go to expensive restaurants. You know what else second income does? No one can tell you that he earned money and you are wasting them. It means that you can leave when relationship goes bad. It means you can handle when husband goes sick or dies. It means that you are less vulnerable and safer.
      - marble-drink 7y ago
        Yeah, that's all great. But I don't want to be a part of a relationship where I'm disposed of as soon as I stop being useful.

analog31 7y ago

The risk of being destroyed financially if something goes wrong with your kids is sobering.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

DollarGuru 7y ago

Do you believe raising children should be an act of duty and self-sacrifice? While I would like to raise a family one day the idea of raising children with just being capable of supporting their necessities doesn't appeal to me at all. If I can't offer them the best start in life or be the parent I wish I had (due to a lack of resources) I would rather not have children.

barry-cotter 7y ago
Read Selfish Reasons to Have More Kids, Bryan Caplan. Most people are glad to have been born, most parents raise happy, healthy children in the industrialized world and in substantial parts of the world outside it, most children would rather have happy parents who spend time with them than more stuff and while you can effect how happy their childhood is you aren’t going to greatly effect their adult outcomes if you parent within the good enough to be allowed to adopt norms. The best start in life is a start.
- DollarGuru 7y ago
  My parents kind of had children for selfish reasons and objectively speaking neither of them should have had children. Now as an adult I have issues that seem to stem from childhood emotional neglect that I struggle with. My sibling isn't that much better emotionally adjusted either. I wasn't a particularly happy child but neither of them noticed or paid much attention even when they could have.
  - barry-cotter 7y ago
    > My parents kind of had children for selfish reasons and objectively speaking neither of them should have had children. If you or your sibling regret being born I’m sorry for you.
  - rogerkirkness 7y ago
    I think that's an entirely valid experience, I don't think anyone is arguing having kids of a universal good, but it also can't be seen as a universal bad. Ideally, as close to 100% of people possible are in a position to make a good choice for themselves.

djrobstep 7y ago

This is nonsense born from classist contempt. Every day middle class people are struggling not with luxuries but with everyday essentials like housing. The correct response to this is not antinatalism but anticapitalism: Why should we have a system that systematically subjects people to financial hardship for having children? It's easily fixed with a sensibly-designed welfare state, but we don't have one because we'd rather be judgemental to the poor about wanting "luxuries" like a decent house to live in.

TuringNYC 7y ago
In the US, I’ve been hearing this point of view consistently amongst co-workers for almost two decades. But talk is cheap and if this was really something people wanted, especially the middle class, I imagine votes would go this way — in the US they do not. It doesn’t even seem to scratch the top 3 issues list.
- djrobstep 7y ago
  People do not make these choices in a vacuum. They are determined by the limited options available to vote for, and the enormous media and cultural resources dedicated to convincing people to vote against their own interests.
dr_dshiv 7y ago
I feel like the main misconception propogated by this argument is the idea that to be pro-welfare, one must be anti capitalist. In fact, socialism (Viz., state support of human needs not met by market) and capitalism (Viz., state support of health of market economy) go hand in hand. Markets are healthier when states selectively intervene to manage externalities, shocks, unemployed, education, health. Of course devil is in the details, but the point here is that capitalism and socialism are two different axes and, hypothetically, the best society maximises both.
- djrobstep 7y ago
  Capitalism doesn't mean "markets", just as socialism doesn't mean "not markets" (hence the existence of "market socialism" as a concept). The defining feature of capitalism is ownership of the means of production aka capital, by a capitalist class. Socialism is common ("social") ownership of the capital, and thus the abolition of the capitalist class.

watwut 7y ago

> Diapers and food are actually not that expensive, but toddler yoga, dual earner flexible childcare, private school and similar absolutely are. While toddle yoga is fluff for healthy children, it is not that expensive and baby exercising can help to the ones that have mild motoric issues. It is actually often something mom does also for herself so that her time is occupied and she meets other moms (social isolation sux, being in same room whole day sux). It is also literally mom seeing problem in her own mental state and taking steps to fix it before it affects her behavior toward kids and husband. When you are socially isolated and bored, you can stay home and be depressed or find a place with people and something that makes somewhat sense to do. Good school, healthcare and do actually matter, you know. So that the child has also middle class future. Good school also eases out situation for parent, as bad school means the parent have to re-teach, have to work around bullying and social pressures on child to be bully or not learn. Dual earner flexible childcare is something traditional man does not appreciate. But, mom who wants ability to fend for herself too if needed and not be dependent and helpless completely appreciates a lot. If nothing else for psychological reasons - staying home is depression inducing for a lot of reasons. And when husband dies or get sick or get unemployed, yeah, it matters a lot. > they choose to opt out of the children having status tournament Well, social status matter to people and always mattered. How others treat you matter a lot to you.

n4r9 7y ago
> While toddle yoga is fluff for healthy children, it is not that expensive I looked this up, near me in SW London it looks like the cheapest monthly membership is £45pm, which is less than an average gym membership, up to £100pm for unlimited classes. I'd go for it if it was a big benefit to the baby. > Good school, healthcare and do actually matter, you know. So that the child has also middle class future. I don't know if it's how it was intended but this is a concise & scathing description of how class structures become entrenched.
seem_2211 7y ago
> Good school, healthcare and do actually matter, you know. So that the child has also middle class future. Nail on the head. Virtue signal all you want, but I know that I'll be putting my money into making sure that any kids I have see a lot of these advantages.

paganel 7y ago

Just wanted to add that diapers are really expensive for lots of middle-class people from around the world. Baby food is also more expensive compared to food for grown-ups.

dr_dshiv 7y ago
Baby food makes no sense. Chew your own food and put it in baby's mouth, just like humans did for the past 100k+ years. Good for microbiome, too. Lazy parenting is (usually) good parenting.
- barry-cotter 7y ago
  I would advise against that for anyone with oral herpes (cold sores) even if you’re not presenting. Also there’s a limited amount of food baby can eat when small. Don’t chew pizza and give that to a three month old.
barry-cotter 7y ago
Baby food is as expensive as finely chopped or mashed vegetables. It does not take long to mash carrots or potatoes. Even making meat paste is trivial with a blender. Diapers really are expensive but baby food should not be breaking the bank because they just don’t eat much. Unsalted mashed up vegetables and small portions of fish, egg or meat aren’t really expensive.

marble-drink 7y ago

I cannot find a woman who will be a full time mother after giving birth. I will not put my children into day care for 12 hours a day. I could afford to support a family in my own, but only with my very frugal and minimalist lifestyle (no fancy car, no expensive holidays, no eating at restaurants etc)

Angostura 7y ago
So you do what I did - marry a woman with a good career and become a stay at home dad. Even better if you have a skill set that allows you to do some work from home, around nap times to allow you to keep your eye in.
- marble-drink 7y ago
  I firmly believe that the key to happiness is to do what you're good at. For me that means working and not raising children. I will never be a stay at home dad.
  - watwut 7y ago
    Yeah, you are totally different from women who want to work. In their case it is selfishness and wanting things most people can easily live without. In your case it is because work gives you happiness and totally nothing to do with material things. Majority of women live without expensive holidays and expensive cars. Majority of men live without expensive car and men are more car-focused and tend to be the ones who control the car when car is in family. Most people, neither males nor females go to expensive restaurants. You know what else second income does? No one can tell you that he earned money and you are wasting them. It means that you can leave when relationship goes bad. It means you can handle when husband goes sick or dies. It means that you are less vulnerable and safer.
    - marble-drink 7y ago
      Yeah, that's all great. But I don't want to be a part of a relationship where I'm disposed of as soon as I stop being useful.