5 ms·

It depends. I have a contrarian view here. I’m German and would advise against learning German for OP. This advice counts for Berlin.m only. The opportunity cos

It depends. I have a contrarian view here. I’m German and would advise against learning German for OP. This advice counts for Berlin.m only. The opportunity costs are just too high. In Berlin you do not need to learn German. Also it’s way harder in Berlin than in any other German city. Just make sure you live in districts with a high expat density, make Some German friends and focus on your career. OP is young and it seems he wants to build his career. That said from my experience I see 7 years as a cut off point where expats start to leave the city. If you are quite confident that you’ll stay >7 years or even consider other cities in Germany start learning German ASAP :)

wbl 7y ago
Im Western Nicht Neues, Buddenbrooks, Schiller and Goethe are all enough reason to learn German.
- ibotty 7y ago
  "Im Western nichts neues" is a great typo: "Nothing new in (the genre of) western", instead "nothing new in the west".
  - SideburnsOfDoom 7y ago
    > nothing new in the west A believe that's usually translated as "All Quiet on the Western Front"
    - ibotty 7y ago
      I know, but literally, it's what I wrote. Thanks for mentioning though!
wreath 7y ago
My thoughts exactly. I live in Berlin for ~6 years and my German is rather poor. All my friends speak English including the german ones and I don't see what would I have in common w/ someone who doesn't speak English at all. The main reason why I gave up on German classes is that it is simply too much of an investment with very little benefit to my especially that I am not a 100% sure I want to stay in Germany. What also bugs me is that in a city/country that is in dire need for knowledge works yet seems unfriendly towards non-German-speaking immigrants, at least from the authority offices. > __That said from my experience I see 7 years as a cut off point where expats start to leave the city__ Spot on.
DoreenMichele 7y ago
Thirty years ago, I lived in Germany as a military wife for nearly four years. Pretty much everywhere I needed to go and interact, everyone spoke fluent English and businesses near the American military post had signs in English and catered to the Americans. I showed up knowing some German because my mother is German. My fluency only improved marginally in the time I was there because most Germans I met spoke English and were thrilled to have the opportunity to practice their English with a native speaker, so I was actively denied opportunities to improve my German because they would promptly begin speaking English to me. When we did day trips to do touristy stuff, it was helpful that I knew more German than most Americans there. I carried a German-English dictionary with me and looked up words I saw on signs. (You can now do that much easier on a smartphone.) It may actually be nigh impossible to learn German, even if you want to. I wanted to, so badly. Almost no one would speak it with me. I am still not fluent in German and it would be too hard to get there via intentional self study to be worth the effort to me. It should have been vastly easier to learn through immersion while living there, but almost no one would speak German with me in Germany. It quite aggravated me. In my youth, I wanted to be a translator and I wanted to learn seven languages fluently. I know a smattering of German, French, Greek, Spanish and Russian (and took French and classical Greek in college). I'm not fluent in any of them. I've turned my attention to learning languages like HTML and CSS. I'm not fluent in them either, but they are infinitely more useful to me in day-to-day life.
- heurisko 7y ago
  My German learning experience has been exactly the same. It is frustrating to have plateaued at a certain level. In Berlin I found a tandem partner who grew up under the DDR and spoke Russian instead of English which is how I practised. Something I also found is that if you start off speaking English with someone, it is nearly impossible to change your relationship into a German one, whereas if you start off speaking German, it seems to reoccur again in the future. It's like your first impression cements which language you're associated with.
- hutzlibu 7y ago
  But you lived in a very american bubble then. Other parts of germany are not quite english adopted. Berlin is mixed. The younger generation does speak english, but you can not expect the bus driver to understand you.
CogitoCogito 7y ago
I 100% disagree with this advice. I don't know what opportunity cost you refer to, but I think learning German is still probably the best way to get to know Germans. Sure the country is multicultural and German is no longer the only language if you want to truly know Germany, but it is still a big deal. I feel like language is the single largest contributor to a group's culture. That said I am amazed to say I agree that you don't need to learn German to survive in Berlin. I lived in Berlin 2005-2006 and learned German while there. I think that not knowing German at the time often made things extremely difficult. Even many of my highly-educated university friends were quite bad at English. But now when I go back and visit English is just plain everywhere. It's weird now how easy it is to live in your bubble and never really need to learn German. And it is true that now you will need to push learning the language yourself when presented with so many opportunities to speak English. Whether or not to learn the local language is of course a personal choice, but I still feel like it's something you should do.
- chrisked 7y ago
  Learning to speak German is time intensive. The global utility of that language is on the lower end. I argue that OP should rather invest this time into (1) building his career, (2) professional+personal network and (3) exercise. That said my assumptions are that OP wants to live in Berlin, is a young tech worker who does not envision today that he stays in Germany for more than 7 years.
  - CogitoCogito 7y ago
    > Learning to speak German is time intensive. The global utility of that language is on the lower end. I argue that OP should rather invest this time into (1) building his career, (2) professional+personal network and (3) exercise. > That said my assumptions are that OP wants to live in Berlin, is a young tech worker who does not envision today that he stays in Germany for more than 7 years. I guess we are just different. And since it's a personal value judgement there really isn't any right answer. I just couldn't imagine living somewhere for 7 years and not wanting to learn the local language. I can't even imagine living somewhere for a few months without making an attempt at it. I agree that your examples (1)-(3) are important, but I consider learning the local language and culture as an investment in your life and experience. It may not have global utility, but I find that totally irrelevant since you are not living "globally" you're living in Berlin. Anyway I find it interesting to hear your opinion. At this point I guess we'll just have to let the OP decide what's important.

wbl 7y ago

Im Western Nicht Neues, Buddenbrooks, Schiller and Goethe are all enough reason to learn German.

ibotty 7y ago
"Im Western nichts neues" is a great typo: "Nothing new in (the genre of) western", instead "nothing new in the west".
- SideburnsOfDoom 7y ago
  > nothing new in the west A believe that's usually translated as "All Quiet on the Western Front"
  - ibotty 7y ago
    I know, but literally, it's what I wrote. Thanks for mentioning though!

wreath 7y ago

My thoughts exactly. I live in Berlin for ~6 years and my German is rather poor. All my friends speak English including the german ones and I don't see what would I have in common w/ someone who doesn't speak English at all. The main reason why I gave up on German classes is that it is simply too much of an investment with very little benefit to my especially that I am not a 100% sure I want to stay in Germany. What also bugs me is that in a city/country that is in dire need for knowledge works yet seems unfriendly towards non-German-speaking immigrants, at least from the authority offices. > __That said from my experience I see 7 years as a cut off point where expats start to leave the city__ Spot on.

DoreenMichele 7y ago

Thirty years ago, I lived in Germany as a military wife for nearly four years. Pretty much everywhere I needed to go and interact, everyone spoke fluent English and businesses near the American military post had signs in English and catered to the Americans. I showed up knowing some German because my mother is German. My fluency only improved marginally in the time I was there because most Germans I met spoke English and were thrilled to have the opportunity to practice their English with a native speaker, so I was actively denied opportunities to improve my German because they would promptly begin speaking English to me. When we did day trips to do touristy stuff, it was helpful that I knew more German than most Americans there. I carried a German-English dictionary with me and looked up words I saw on signs. (You can now do that much easier on a smartphone.) It may actually be nigh impossible to learn German, even if you want to. I wanted to, so badly. Almost no one would speak it with me. I am still not fluent in German and it would be too hard to get there via intentional self study to be worth the effort to me. It should have been vastly easier to learn through immersion while living there, but almost no one would speak German with me in Germany. It quite aggravated me. In my youth, I wanted to be a translator and I wanted to learn seven languages fluently. I know a smattering of German, French, Greek, Spanish and Russian (and took French and classical Greek in college). I'm not fluent in any of them. I've turned my attention to learning languages like HTML and CSS. I'm not fluent in them either, but they are infinitely more useful to me in day-to-day life.

heurisko 7y ago
My German learning experience has been exactly the same. It is frustrating to have plateaued at a certain level. In Berlin I found a tandem partner who grew up under the DDR and spoke Russian instead of English which is how I practised. Something I also found is that if you start off speaking English with someone, it is nearly impossible to change your relationship into a German one, whereas if you start off speaking German, it seems to reoccur again in the future. It's like your first impression cements which language you're associated with.
hutzlibu 7y ago
But you lived in a very american bubble then. Other parts of germany are not quite english adopted. Berlin is mixed. The younger generation does speak english, but you can not expect the bus driver to understand you.

CogitoCogito 7y ago

I 100% disagree with this advice. I don't know what opportunity cost you refer to, but I think learning German is still probably the best way to get to know Germans. Sure the country is multicultural and German is no longer the only language if you want to truly know Germany, but it is still a big deal. I feel like language is the single largest contributor to a group's culture. That said I am amazed to say I agree that you don't need to learn German to survive in Berlin. I lived in Berlin 2005-2006 and learned German while there. I think that not knowing German at the time often made things extremely difficult. Even many of my highly-educated university friends were quite bad at English. But now when I go back and visit English is just plain everywhere. It's weird now how easy it is to live in your bubble and never really need to learn German. And it is true that now you will need to push learning the language yourself when presented with so many opportunities to speak English. Whether or not to learn the local language is of course a personal choice, but I still feel like it's something you should do.

chrisked 7y ago
Learning to speak German is time intensive. The global utility of that language is on the lower end. I argue that OP should rather invest this time into (1) building his career, (2) professional+personal network and (3) exercise. That said my assumptions are that OP wants to live in Berlin, is a young tech worker who does not envision today that he stays in Germany for more than 7 years.
- CogitoCogito 7y ago
  > Learning to speak German is time intensive. The global utility of that language is on the lower end. I argue that OP should rather invest this time into (1) building his career, (2) professional+personal network and (3) exercise. > That said my assumptions are that OP wants to live in Berlin, is a young tech worker who does not envision today that he stays in Germany for more than 7 years. I guess we are just different. And since it's a personal value judgement there really isn't any right answer. I just couldn't imagine living somewhere for 7 years and not wanting to learn the local language. I can't even imagine living somewhere for a few months without making an attempt at it. I agree that your examples (1)-(3) are important, but I consider learning the local language and culture as an investment in your life and experience. It may not have global utility, but I find that totally irrelevant since you are not living "globally" you're living in Berlin. Anyway I find it interesting to hear your opinion. At this point I guess we'll just have to let the OP decide what's important.