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Having found something that works well doesn't proclude finding something that works even better. Before capitalism, violence used to solve more problems than

Having found something that works well doesn't proclude finding something that works even better. Before capitalism, violence used to solve more problems than any other means. Slavery also lifted people out of poverty. Because, you know, the slaves weren't considered 'people'.

yakshaving_jgt 7y ago
> Having found something that works well doesn't proclude [sic] finding something that works even better. I'm not suggesting it does. There might well be a system that works more favourably, but I don't know what that would look like and I have never heard anyone suggest anything that isn't some flavour of Communism hiding behind the extremely arrogant position of "but it's never been tried! It would work if we did it my way!".
- claudiawerner 7y ago
  The fact that you dismiss "anything" that's a flavour of Communism isn't encouraging - as is the disdain for "It would work if we did it my way!". The whole concept of "working if we do it my way" is the history of all mathematics, science and even modern day economics. It's the foundation of liberalism, the system you cherish. Many philosophers in normative social theory would argue that we have to treat their proposed societies as hypotheses. Consider the analogy to Fermat's Last Theorem - although for hundreds of years we tried to crack its proof, many proofs ended disastrously, but some of them actually opened up whole new areas of mathematics despite not reaching their goal. As such, they also served as learning experiences. I think the same can be said for normative social theory.
  - yakshaving_jgt 7y ago
    > The fact that you dismiss "anything" that's a flavour of Communism isn't encouraging Communism's historic death toll is far from encouraging either. > as is the disdain for "It would work if we did it my way!" That "my way" invariably boils down to "oh, people just wouldn't be corrupt if I'm in charge." That's the recurring utopian vision. Then when it doesn't exactly go to plan, you get forced labour, internment, and executions. > The whole concept of "working if we do it my way" is the history of all mathematics Completely irrelevant.
    - claudiawerner 7y ago
      >Communism's historic death toll is far from encouraging either. I do not dispute death tolls, but I do dispute the idea that you should argue using this point in favour of capitalism, which has similar consequences out of issues such as structural poverty and imperialism. >"oh, people just wouldn't be corrupt if I'm in charge." No serious academic Communist/Marxist/Socialist claims this. The fact you think that's what the claim is shows that you get more information about arguments for Communism from Internet memes and fora than you do from people who work with the topic. >Completely irrelevant. No it's not. Your point was that "it'll work my way" is fallacious logic. My retort was that this same logic is used in all normative social theory and indeed many other areas of human endeavour too.
      - yakshaving_jgt 7y ago
        > No serious academic Communist/Marxist/Socialist claims this. Ah, yes. Quite so. Tell me, must a "serious" academic Communist also be a True Scotsman?
        claudiawerner 7y ago
        Not at all, but he must be someone who knows his onions when it comes to Communism, or Marx. I don't get my opinions on liberalism from caricatures on HN, and I don't get my opinions on Marx from anonymous 4chan users.
  - turk73 7y ago
    Go look up some photos of the Ukrainian genocide, then get back to me. My Grandmother's family fled Stalin's murderers with just the clothes on their backs. A few fun facts: At the height of the Genocide Ukrainians were dying at a rate of 25,000 per day. Nearly 1 in 4 rural Ukrainians died as a direct result. The Soviets dumped 1.7 million tons of grain on Western markets during the Genocide amounting to nearly 1/5 of a ton of grain was exported for each person who died of starvation. Over 3,000,000 children born between 1932-1933 died of starvation. I would rather just start shooting right now than risk a single day under communism in any form. Right. Now. In current days Venezuelans are re-living the horror. The hell they are living there, it is beyond comprehension.

yakshaving_jgt 7y ago

> Having found something that works well doesn't proclude [sic] finding something that works even better. I'm not suggesting it does. There might well be a system that works more favourably, but I don't know what that would look like and I have never heard anyone suggest anything that isn't some flavour of Communism hiding behind the extremely arrogant position of "but it's never been tried! It would work if we did it my way!".

claudiawerner 7y ago
The fact that you dismiss "anything" that's a flavour of Communism isn't encouraging - as is the disdain for "It would work if we did it my way!". The whole concept of "working if we do it my way" is the history of all mathematics, science and even modern day economics. It's the foundation of liberalism, the system you cherish. Many philosophers in normative social theory would argue that we have to treat their proposed societies as hypotheses. Consider the analogy to Fermat's Last Theorem - although for hundreds of years we tried to crack its proof, many proofs ended disastrously, but some of them actually opened up whole new areas of mathematics despite not reaching their goal. As such, they also served as learning experiences. I think the same can be said for normative social theory.
- yakshaving_jgt 7y ago
  > The fact that you dismiss "anything" that's a flavour of Communism isn't encouraging Communism's historic death toll is far from encouraging either. > as is the disdain for "It would work if we did it my way!" That "my way" invariably boils down to "oh, people just wouldn't be corrupt if I'm in charge." That's the recurring utopian vision. Then when it doesn't exactly go to plan, you get forced labour, internment, and executions. > The whole concept of "working if we do it my way" is the history of all mathematics Completely irrelevant.
  - claudiawerner 7y ago
    >Communism's historic death toll is far from encouraging either. I do not dispute death tolls, but I do dispute the idea that you should argue using this point in favour of capitalism, which has similar consequences out of issues such as structural poverty and imperialism. >"oh, people just wouldn't be corrupt if I'm in charge." No serious academic Communist/Marxist/Socialist claims this. The fact you think that's what the claim is shows that you get more information about arguments for Communism from Internet memes and fora than you do from people who work with the topic. >Completely irrelevant. No it's not. Your point was that "it'll work my way" is fallacious logic. My retort was that this same logic is used in all normative social theory and indeed many other areas of human endeavour too.
    - yakshaving_jgt 7y ago
      > No serious academic Communist/Marxist/Socialist claims this. Ah, yes. Quite so. Tell me, must a "serious" academic Communist also be a True Scotsman?
      - claudiawerner 7y ago
        Not at all, but he must be someone who knows his onions when it comes to Communism, or Marx. I don't get my opinions on liberalism from caricatures on HN, and I don't get my opinions on Marx from anonymous 4chan users.
- turk73 7y ago
  Go look up some photos of the Ukrainian genocide, then get back to me. My Grandmother's family fled Stalin's murderers with just the clothes on their backs. A few fun facts: At the height of the Genocide Ukrainians were dying at a rate of 25,000 per day. Nearly 1 in 4 rural Ukrainians died as a direct result. The Soviets dumped 1.7 million tons of grain on Western markets during the Genocide amounting to nearly 1/5 of a ton of grain was exported for each person who died of starvation. Over 3,000,000 children born between 1932-1933 died of starvation. I would rather just start shooting right now than risk a single day under communism in any form. Right. Now. In current days Venezuelans are re-living the horror. The hell they are living there, it is beyond comprehension.