5 ms·

One can see why historians like to describe mathematics in terms of second-order philosophical, cultural, socio-political effects (a clockwork universe, a ratio

One can see why historians like to describe mathematics in terms of second-order philosophical, cultural, socio-political effects (a clockwork universe, a rationalist garden, etc) but surely this is putting the cart before the horse: the biggest impact of mathematics is in the first-order effects: mathematics made solid, as it were, in architecture, engineering and technology in general - much more so than the surrounding aesthetics. I guess I'm just not buying tendentious (and unprovable) connections between advances in geometry and reshaping of the social order. That said, I will check out the book.

abdullahkhalids 7y ago
Without having read the book, I don't think they are discounting the first. Only that what you call are second order effects are actually much very important in the long run. This becomes much clearer when you do a cross-cultural study of these effects. There are many poor countries, where the average person is roughly as mathematically/scientifically literate as a person in the richest countries in the world, but the philosophical/cultural/socio-political parts of those countries are much divorced from scientific truth.
superpermutat0r 7y ago
Mathematics was nowhere in architecture, engineering or technology before the renaissance. Heuristics, written or taught were the only things used. There were no formulas, even geometry, that was invented BC had no place in architecture of 13th century.
- pazimzadeh 7y ago
  ...in Europe?
  - dilippkumar 7y ago
    In Europe, after the collapse of the Roman empire and before the start of the Renaissance - in what popular culture refers to as “The Dark Ages” (tbh: I’m not an expert in medieval europe. I’ll trust the GP comment that nothing happened during the medieval era)
- twic 7y ago
  When you say "before the renaissance", you mean "between the fall of Rome and the Renaissance, in Europe", right? Because, for example, the ancient Greeks used mathematics in the design of siege weapons - you have to solve a cube root to work out how big the torsion springs should be in a ballista: http://www.hellenicaworld.com/Greece/Technology/en/Catapults.html http://www.hellenicaworld.com/Greece/Technology/en/Catapults...
  - superpermutat0r 7y ago
    This is a hypothesis, no written text in architecture or engineering contains mathematics. It was all heuristics. Euclides geometry was not used in architecture before renaissance.
- eternalban 7y ago
  Euro-centric historic chauvinism never ceases to amaze. It is always worth a chuckle to hear for example how "Rome conquered the known world" and your bon mot here how "Mathematics was nowhere in architecture, engineering or technology before the renaissance." It is truly astounding.
  - CMCDragonkai 7y ago
    A very small known world. Smaller than most large empires in land area.
    - eternalban 7y ago
      It's not merely that. It is the willful disregard for the fact that Rome itself was very much aware of Parthian and Sassanid Persia, India, and China. An entire city in Iran was built by Roman prisoners of war! I sometimes wonder if the persistence of this willful disregard, as a pedagogical factor, plays a role in current geopolitical matters which finds the West in disarray as to how to respond to the reemergence of the "unknown world".
      - sifar 7y ago
        Even before Rome, these regions were not unknown. The Greeks even fought them, settled there. One of my personal long term topics[1] to research is how these two hitherto separate schools of thought have influenced each other. The western and the oriental thought may have a common genesis. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhism
  - superpermutat0r 7y ago
    I believe you misunderstood me. Take any architecture-engineering book before 14th century, and I mean go back to the dawn of man, and you won't even find Pythagoras theorem. It was all collection of heuristics that worked and the collections were made from hundreds of years of trial and error. Big buildings in Rome were all built with heuristics that had no formulas. Euclidean geometry in architecture is a modern thing.

abdullahkhalids 7y ago

Without having read the book, I don't think they are discounting the first. Only that what you call are second order effects are actually much very important in the long run. This becomes much clearer when you do a cross-cultural study of these effects. There are many poor countries, where the average person is roughly as mathematically/scientifically literate as a person in the richest countries in the world, but the philosophical/cultural/socio-political parts of those countries are much divorced from scientific truth.

superpermutat0r 7y ago

Mathematics was nowhere in architecture, engineering or technology before the renaissance. Heuristics, written or taught were the only things used. There were no formulas, even geometry, that was invented BC had no place in architecture of 13th century.

pazimzadeh 7y ago
...in Europe?
- dilippkumar 7y ago
  In Europe, after the collapse of the Roman empire and before the start of the Renaissance - in what popular culture refers to as “The Dark Ages” (tbh: I’m not an expert in medieval europe. I’ll trust the GP comment that nothing happened during the medieval era)
twic 7y ago
When you say "before the renaissance", you mean "between the fall of Rome and the Renaissance, in Europe", right? Because, for example, the ancient Greeks used mathematics in the design of siege weapons - you have to solve a cube root to work out how big the torsion springs should be in a ballista: http://www.hellenicaworld.com/Greece/Technology/en/Catapults.html http://www.hellenicaworld.com/Greece/Technology/en/Catapults...
- superpermutat0r 7y ago
  This is a hypothesis, no written text in architecture or engineering contains mathematics. It was all heuristics. Euclides geometry was not used in architecture before renaissance.
eternalban 7y ago
Euro-centric historic chauvinism never ceases to amaze. It is always worth a chuckle to hear for example how "Rome conquered the known world" and your bon mot here how "Mathematics was nowhere in architecture, engineering or technology before the renaissance." It is truly astounding.
- CMCDragonkai 7y ago
  A very small known world. Smaller than most large empires in land area.
  - eternalban 7y ago
    It's not merely that. It is the willful disregard for the fact that Rome itself was very much aware of Parthian and Sassanid Persia, India, and China. An entire city in Iran was built by Roman prisoners of war! I sometimes wonder if the persistence of this willful disregard, as a pedagogical factor, plays a role in current geopolitical matters which finds the West in disarray as to how to respond to the reemergence of the "unknown world".
    - sifar 7y ago
      Even before Rome, these regions were not unknown. The Greeks even fought them, settled there. One of my personal long term topics[1] to research is how these two hitherto separate schools of thought have influenced each other. The western and the oriental thought may have a common genesis. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhism
- superpermutat0r 7y ago
  I believe you misunderstood me. Take any architecture-engineering book before 14th century, and I mean go back to the dawn of man, and you won't even find Pythagoras theorem. It was all collection of heuristics that worked and the collections were made from hundreds of years of trial and error. Big buildings in Rome were all built with heuristics that had no formulas. Euclidean geometry in architecture is a modern thing.