4 ms·

Tactically, warrant canaries are dead-man switches. Conceptually, you can't compel someone to explicitly lie publicly.

ghayes 7y ago
But the FBI could advise the canary poster that not continuing to post the canary notice could lead to legal action (esp. since that person has willfully put him/herself into the situation). Then it would be up to the recipient of the NSL to decide if it’s worth that risk, which is as stated above, untested. It’s a fine line between telling them to lie versus telling them the ruse could be in violation of the gag order.
- conanbatt 7y ago
  Conceptually you can't because you can put as a citizen any requirement to make a canary that the law cant compel you to do. For example, you can pay to publish the canary: the state can't compel you to spend money on it. Or you can make a small petty crime with it (say, an IP Violation). In places where there are limits to what the government can do to an with you, its possible to resist.
  - soulofmischief 7y ago
    Why are you arguing about what is conceptually possible? The reality is such that people can absolutely be compelled to lie in public, especially for "national security" means. It happens all the time. Failing to update could signal something, but continuing to update means nothing. "Resistance" and other such concepts don't hold up to scrutiny against shareholders and 40 year sentences.
    - conanbatt 7y ago
      Because thinking otherwise is saying that nothing really matters, the government can do anything at any time and you are toast no matter what.
      - otterley 7y ago
        Welcome to the real world, kid. Population: all of us damned souls.
      - traderjane 7y ago
        The truth is in the middle for all nations on this earth. Adopting reality as a context is not nihilism.
      - soulofmischief 7y ago
        Well... that might be true. In the words of George Orwell: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iP3T5tEs7yI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iP3T5tEs7yI
    - Retric 7y ago
      “Compelled Speech“ has been tested in the Supreme Court. EX: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of... The US government can’t legally compel you to lie, but may restrict what you can say.
  - otterley 7y ago
    The constitutionality of whether the US Government can force someone to update a warrant canary has never been tested. Until it is, it’s foolish to declare with certainty whether it is or is not legal. We can only speculate at best. We know that the legal bar for forcing someone to speak or not speak is high (compelling state interest), but national security has usually been held to pass such a bar.

But the FBI could advise the canary poster that not continuing to post the canary notice could lead to legal action (esp. since that person has willfully put him/herself into the situation). Then it would be up to the recipient of the NSL to decide if it’s worth that risk, which is as stated above, untested. It’s a fine line between telling them to lie versus telling them the ruse could be in violation of the gag order.

conanbatt 7y ago
Conceptually you can't because you can put as a citizen any requirement to make a canary that the law cant compel you to do. For example, you can pay to publish the canary: the state can't compel you to spend money on it. Or you can make a small petty crime with it (say, an IP Violation). In places where there are limits to what the government can do to an with you, its possible to resist.
- soulofmischief 7y ago
  Why are you arguing about what is conceptually possible? The reality is such that people can absolutely be compelled to lie in public, especially for "national security" means. It happens all the time. Failing to update could signal something, but continuing to update means nothing. "Resistance" and other such concepts don't hold up to scrutiny against shareholders and 40 year sentences.
  - conanbatt 7y ago
    Because thinking otherwise is saying that nothing really matters, the government can do anything at any time and you are toast no matter what.
    - otterley 7y ago
      Welcome to the real world, kid. Population: all of us damned souls.
    - traderjane 7y ago
      The truth is in the middle for all nations on this earth. Adopting reality as a context is not nihilism.
    - soulofmischief 7y ago
      Well... that might be true. In the words of George Orwell: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iP3T5tEs7yI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iP3T5tEs7yI
  - Retric 7y ago
    “Compelled Speech“ has been tested in the Supreme Court. EX: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of_Education_v._Barnette https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Virginia_State_Board_of... The US government can’t legally compel you to lie, but may restrict what you can say.
- otterley 7y ago
  The constitutionality of whether the US Government can force someone to update a warrant canary has never been tested. Until it is, it’s foolish to declare with certainty whether it is or is not legal. We can only speculate at best. We know that the legal bar for forcing someone to speak or not speak is high (compelling state interest), but national security has usually been held to pass such a bar.