4 ms·

The lack of unions in the industry is making me leave. It’s going to leave out many of its current employees to dry: I want something better than the word of an

The lack of unions in the industry is making me leave. It’s going to leave out many of its current employees to dry: I want something better than the word of an entrepreneur.

baron816 7y ago
If a tech company I worked for unionized, I would leave. I’m not in a single company town where everyone has worked at the same place their entire lives. Tech companies face fierce competition for talent, and it has worked out quite nicely for the employees. I wouldn’t want some outside organization coming in and forcing me to pay dues, demanding changes to the structure of the company, devaluing my equity, and making it impossible to fire poor performers that make my job harder.
- CPLX 7y ago
  You’re aware that the major professional sports in the US are unionized right? Do you think the competition for talent for them is more or less fierce than it is for you?
  - baron816 7y ago
    That’s the worst example you could’ve used. Pro sports leagues are monopolies with a large percentage of potential players/workers being left out of the market.
    - eropple 7y ago
      Only MLB is a monopoly.
      - parsimo2010 7y ago
        Can you expand on that? It seems like the NFL and NBA are also monopolies. I can't think of any organization, even worldwide, that could compete in their sports. There is arena football, but that is a laughable alternative to the NFL. The top foreign pros play in the NBA, they do not stay in their home leagues. It seems a lot like there is no choice of where to play for top pros in these sports, which makes them a monopoly. An alternative that doesn't seem quite like a monopoly is the UFC with mixed martial arts. Bellator MMA is a viable (but less prestigious) alternative for someone that doesn't want to work with the UFC.
        eropple 7y ago
        I mean that MLB is a legally-granted monopoly in the United States. They literally have an antitrust exemption. The NBA is the biggest game in town, but that's a question of money and I see some movement on that front. I expect to see the Chinese leagues start spending a lot more money in the near future, and Euroleague is starting to pay some players salaries that are significant even compared to the NBA (this year, Mirotic basically got what the Jazz would have offered him, after you take into account lifestyle perks and the like that come from Euroleague--and nobody in the NBA is giving Alexey Shved $4mil). The NFL is arguably closer to a monopoly but they're having a competitor to it launched next year in the re-launched XFL. Salary numbers aren't out there AFAIK, but there it's a billionaires-being-billionaires game of "what's your pain tolerance?".
  - Ericson2314 7y ago
    Yeah, the they idea the unions are just for "fungible loosers" is worse than wrong.
  - solidasparagus 7y ago
    The NFL is a perfect example of how unions can work out extremely poorly for the players because unions struggle to be truly representative of the people in that industry (and the people who are not yet in the industry but will be locked into a union deal they weren't a part of negotiating). Some subset of the players have the most influence in the CBA negotiations (due to longevity + connections, fame, etc), they push for the things they care about, and then the final outcome leaves a very large set of current and future players in a shitty situation.
- fargle 7y ago
  Amen to that. Engineering is unique in that both experience and talent is required, and is valued. IMHO, that plus competition is enough security for me. I don't need another layer of bureaucracy "helping" me be less productive. By raising barriers to entrance, barriers to change, and by protecting the entrenched a union would totally devalue my worth.
- songerik 7y ago
  It seems pretty shallow to pin the qualities of an unhealthy union on all unions. Some unions are great, others are not, and healthy unions only require one simple ingredient: maintenance and attention, like most things. Unions are just an avenue for bargaining. In my experience, which has only been in a healthy union with people who take an interest in the value it provides, it has been so liberating! It encourages us to discuss things in the open that would have always been closed-door conversations before, and I never worry about whether I am being taken advantage of. I honestly don’t even make much money for a software engineer, but I love the domain I work in and having the union has made my work relationships just feel less exploitative. It feels less like work.
- Volundr 7y ago
  Unless the union negotiates an exclusive hire contract with the company (very difficult unless the union controls most of the labor supply), you can simply not join the union. I always find these things arguments a bit weird. Lets look at the concerns > forcing me to pay dues Don't join. No dues, no help from the union. > demanding changes to the structure of the company As an employee you have no say in the structure of the company and it may restructure at any moment. As a union member at least have some say in what the union pushes for. It seems like this is arguing for no control instead of some. > devaluing my equity How? > making it impossible to fire poor performers that make my job harder. Again how? A union can't stop a company from firing someone (barring contracts the company may have signed with the union). A union can assist the fired employee in things like negotiating severance, or mounting a legal challenge if the employee was discriminated against. As someone who just witnessed a mass-layoff, I wonder how much better off the employees might be if they had someone on their side, negotiating severance, notice periods etc. Everything a union does is paid for out of member dues. They don't have infinite resources to spend in constant legal battles challenging the clearly legal firing of a shitty employee, and if the did waste member dues like that, they'd quickly find themselves no members. If the union isn't representing your interests, just leave it. It'll quickly run out of members and money and become toothless.
- UncleMeat 7y ago
  Its not an outside organization. It is an organization that you democratically control.
  - rumanator 7y ago
    > is an organization that you democratically control. There is no such thing. You do have the right to cast a vote from time to time, but that's the full extent of your influence over the organization. Between elections you are there to take orders and experience the outcome of events decided by a random union type without your say or input. That's not control. That's just another master telling you what to do.
    - SomeOtherThrow 7y ago
      Dictatorships are the default model of corporate America. What you’re describing is still a massive step up from following one idiot and still having no say.
- SomeOtherThrow 7y ago
  Hey, that’s a union job I can take instead, no worries.
pmikesell 7y ago
Have you ever worked a unionized job before?
- SomeOtherThrow 7y ago
  Ok, bitter old man with one sample.

The lack of unions in the industry is making me leave. It’s going to leave out many of its current employees to dry: I want something better than the word of an entrepreneur.

baron816 7y ago

If a tech company I worked for unionized, I would leave. I’m not in a single company town where everyone has worked at the same place their entire lives. Tech companies face fierce competition for talent, and it has worked out quite nicely for the employees. I wouldn’t want some outside organization coming in and forcing me to pay dues, demanding changes to the structure of the company, devaluing my equity, and making it impossible to fire poor performers that make my job harder.

CPLX 7y ago
You’re aware that the major professional sports in the US are unionized right? Do you think the competition for talent for them is more or less fierce than it is for you?
- baron816 7y ago
  That’s the worst example you could’ve used. Pro sports leagues are monopolies with a large percentage of potential players/workers being left out of the market.
  - eropple 7y ago
    Only MLB is a monopoly.
    - parsimo2010 7y ago
      Can you expand on that? It seems like the NFL and NBA are also monopolies. I can't think of any organization, even worldwide, that could compete in their sports. There is arena football, but that is a laughable alternative to the NFL. The top foreign pros play in the NBA, they do not stay in their home leagues. It seems a lot like there is no choice of where to play for top pros in these sports, which makes them a monopoly. An alternative that doesn't seem quite like a monopoly is the UFC with mixed martial arts. Bellator MMA is a viable (but less prestigious) alternative for someone that doesn't want to work with the UFC.
      - eropple 7y ago
        I mean that MLB is a legally-granted monopoly in the United States. They literally have an antitrust exemption. The NBA is the biggest game in town, but that's a question of money and I see some movement on that front. I expect to see the Chinese leagues start spending a lot more money in the near future, and Euroleague is starting to pay some players salaries that are significant even compared to the NBA (this year, Mirotic basically got what the Jazz would have offered him, after you take into account lifestyle perks and the like that come from Euroleague--and nobody in the NBA is giving Alexey Shved $4mil). The NFL is arguably closer to a monopoly but they're having a competitor to it launched next year in the re-launched XFL. Salary numbers aren't out there AFAIK, but there it's a billionaires-being-billionaires game of "what's your pain tolerance?".
- Ericson2314 7y ago
  Yeah, the they idea the unions are just for "fungible loosers" is worse than wrong.
- solidasparagus 7y ago
  The NFL is a perfect example of how unions can work out extremely poorly for the players because unions struggle to be truly representative of the people in that industry (and the people who are not yet in the industry but will be locked into a union deal they weren't a part of negotiating). Some subset of the players have the most influence in the CBA negotiations (due to longevity + connections, fame, etc), they push for the things they care about, and then the final outcome leaves a very large set of current and future players in a shitty situation.
fargle 7y ago
Amen to that. Engineering is unique in that both experience and talent is required, and is valued. IMHO, that plus competition is enough security for me. I don't need another layer of bureaucracy "helping" me be less productive. By raising barriers to entrance, barriers to change, and by protecting the entrenched a union would totally devalue my worth.
songerik 7y ago
It seems pretty shallow to pin the qualities of an unhealthy union on all unions. Some unions are great, others are not, and healthy unions only require one simple ingredient: maintenance and attention, like most things. Unions are just an avenue for bargaining. In my experience, which has only been in a healthy union with people who take an interest in the value it provides, it has been so liberating! It encourages us to discuss things in the open that would have always been closed-door conversations before, and I never worry about whether I am being taken advantage of. I honestly don’t even make much money for a software engineer, but I love the domain I work in and having the union has made my work relationships just feel less exploitative. It feels less like work.
Volundr 7y ago
Unless the union negotiates an exclusive hire contract with the company (very difficult unless the union controls most of the labor supply), you can simply not join the union. I always find these things arguments a bit weird. Lets look at the concerns > forcing me to pay dues Don't join. No dues, no help from the union. > demanding changes to the structure of the company As an employee you have no say in the structure of the company and it may restructure at any moment. As a union member at least have some say in what the union pushes for. It seems like this is arguing for no control instead of some. > devaluing my equity How? > making it impossible to fire poor performers that make my job harder. Again how? A union can't stop a company from firing someone (barring contracts the company may have signed with the union). A union can assist the fired employee in things like negotiating severance, or mounting a legal challenge if the employee was discriminated against. As someone who just witnessed a mass-layoff, I wonder how much better off the employees might be if they had someone on their side, negotiating severance, notice periods etc. Everything a union does is paid for out of member dues. They don't have infinite resources to spend in constant legal battles challenging the clearly legal firing of a shitty employee, and if the did waste member dues like that, they'd quickly find themselves no members. If the union isn't representing your interests, just leave it. It'll quickly run out of members and money and become toothless.
UncleMeat 7y ago
Its not an outside organization. It is an organization that you democratically control.
- rumanator 7y ago
  > is an organization that you democratically control. There is no such thing. You do have the right to cast a vote from time to time, but that's the full extent of your influence over the organization. Between elections you are there to take orders and experience the outcome of events decided by a random union type without your say or input. That's not control. That's just another master telling you what to do.
  - SomeOtherThrow 7y ago
    Dictatorships are the default model of corporate America. What you’re describing is still a massive step up from following one idiot and still having no say.
SomeOtherThrow 7y ago
Hey, that’s a union job I can take instead, no worries.

pmikesell 7y ago

Have you ever worked a unionized job before?

SomeOtherThrow 7y ago
Ok, bitter old man with one sample.