6 ms·

>So let's talk about Richard Stallman, because it has come to my attention that people outside of a certain segment of the tech scene have no idea what horrible

by serf 7y ago

>So let's talk about Richard Stallman, because it has come to my attention that people outside of a certain segment of the tech scene have no idea what horrible behavior he routinely engages in. that whole thread is a pretty gross social lynch mob, if I do say so myself. not condoning RMS, but I don't feel too great about any get-together where the topic at hand is , quite literally, let's speak ill of someone.

tptacek 7y ago
Miguel de Icaza agreed to allow Stallman to stay at his place for a couple days. Stallman grossly overstayed, and later invited another person(!) to stay with him in the room he was borrowing from de Icaza. That is, to say the least, relevant information for anyone else who might consider lending him a guest bedroom.
- serf 7y ago
  >That is, to say the least, relevant information for anyone else who might consider lending him a guest bedroom. Sure, but that's not what's going on in that thread. It's basically just a pissing contest, with participants across the internet, about 'ridiculous' stories involving RMS. A link to the famous rms-foot meme is by no means a warning to future hospitable folks. It's not some neighborhood watch newsletter to warn about a predator, it's just a bunch of people who have been given the social go-ahead to share stories that they wouldn't otherwise have -- while simultaneously vying for social credit from others with regards to how hospitable they say they were. In other words, i'm not buying the supposed good intentions 'we must warn others' perspective here. If anything, it seems like group therapy for those that feel scorned by RMS to get together and share war-stories. That's fine -- but let's not paint it like they're adamantly trying to prevent RMS from victimizing someone. Back in my day it was called 'gossiping', and it was usually poor form.
  - tptacek 7y ago
    I've described literally the first comments in the thread, which are what was actually linked here. It seems a little weird to hold an HN comment accountable for every random thing anyone on Twitter said in response to de Icaza.
    - stefan_ 7y ago
      You were responding to a comment that stated > that whole thread is a pretty gross social lynch mob
      - tptacek 7y ago
        The comments I'm referring to are a part of the whole thread and are obviously not a "gross social lynch mob". "I offered this person a bed for a couple days, they stayed for months, and invited a stranger to live in my house" is a pretty straightforward kernel of useful information.
- topmonk 7y ago
  Now what's the ugliest, awful story about your behavior? Kindly share it publicly along with proof of your actual identity. This is relevant information for anyone who might consider giving you a job, having a relationship with you, or renting you a place to stay, so it's totally appropriate to air your dirty laundry in a entirely public forum and associate it to your real identity. Thank you.
  - tptacek 7y ago
    There's a name for things like "the ugliest, awful story known about your behavior"; they're called "your reputation".
    - quotemstr 7y ago
      It used to be possible to reform one's reputation. Now, people with a grudge will spread old stories about you to strangers for as long as you live and make it impossible for you to get back on your feet. Is that a just society? The guy is an old man who's already been stripped of all positions of influence. Why do you want to make him sleep on the street too? At what point will you believe justice has been served? Attacking the defenseless and powerless is cruelty itself.
      - tptacek 7y ago
        You're hyperventilating. I don't want anyone to sleep on the street and very much doubt Stallman will meet that fate. At the same time: Stallman has a reputation as a houseguest, and it is relevant to this branch of the discussion.
        quotemstr 7y ago
        Oh, I'm sure you don't want him to sleep on the street. It's just interesting that you're doing everything in your power to bring about that situation.
        7y ago
- craigsmansion 7y ago
  Did Miguel ask him to leave? Or did he just sit around passive-aggressively for 3 whole months? Also, rms called Miguel "a traitor to the Free Software community" at some point, and now with the whole MIT business, he gets in with the twitter defamation league spouting off his grievances. That's pretty much beyond cowardly and into despicable territory.
  - hutzlibu 7y ago
    It is cowardly, if he actually did not ask him to leave. But it seems you don't know that, just made the assumption and jumped to the conclusion.
    - craigsmansion 7y ago
      No, I think it's cowardly regardless to spout his grievances at this particular moment. If he did not ask him to leave, that would make it despicable in my eyes.
      - tptacek 7y ago
        On the other hand, he at least had the courage to sign his name to what he had to say.
        craigsmansion 7y ago
        > he at least had the courage to sign his name to what he had to say. Which is neither here nor there, but thanks for playing.
        enriquto 7y ago
        he didn't, really. Only after the hordes were finishing RMS, he found the "courage" to speak
        hutzlibu 7y ago
        Yes, because before he was scared of being finished by the hordes of RMS, for citicicing their idol. So yes, a weak person, but it is still telling, that now so many speak up who did not dare to do so before. Weak and pathetic? Maybe yes. But still telling about RMS.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
happytoexplain 7y ago
There's a subtle, complex space between publicly talking shit for petty reasons about somebody who has just made mistakes, and sharing stories about somebody who is truly immoral for the purpose of helping others avoid suffering the same consequences. I don't claim that this is near either extreme of the spectrum, but it seems closer to the latter end, in my brief interpretation.
- tptacek 7y ago
  Or, just, if you're going to lend Stallman a guest bedroom, be aware of what might happen. Everything doesn't have to have a soaring, far-reaching philosophical purpose.
javajosh 7y ago
>I don't feel too great about any get-together where the topic at hand is , quite literally, let's speak ill of someone Oh, I don't know, that thread read more like relatively mild commiseration between people with first-hand experiences hosting RMS - which all sounded rather chagrined/amused more than anything, at least in retrospect. (Admittedly such talk is better in person over drinks, but it's hardly the "cancel culture" type mob you see nowadays.)
kace91 7y ago
“There is a sort of camaraderie that rarely exists except between men who have fought the same enemies and known the same women.”
DefensiveAlt 7y ago
The problem here is that when one person says something, it is an isolated incident, when a group says something it is a pile on. Many people seem to have rms bad behaviour stories, but a quick glance shows that there there is no shortage of people to respond antagonistically to any bad word spoken. I have only met rms once in the 90's, he made quite a poor impression. While it was nothing to condemn, it was enough to keep a skeptical eye on the cult of personality that surrounds him. Over the years that followed I encountered enough people who have stories that they were not prepared to share publicly because it would be more detrimental to themselves than rms. In my opinion I am much less concerned about the hypotheticals shared in emails that precipitated the current situation. The issues that worry me are the stories of inconsiderate, manipulative, or outright bullying behaviour. I have no accusations to make of my own, but I support those who feel like they now have an opportunity to be heard.
DanBC 7y ago
> but I don't feel too great about any get-together where the topic at hand is , quite literally, let's speak ill of someone. People saying RMS shouldn't be leading open source projects are now stuck. If they don't give details of all the times RMS has behaved unacceptably someone will say "but what has he actually done?", and if they do give details of poor behaviour someone will say "the social lynch mob is unpleasant".

by serf 7y ago

tptacek 7y ago

Miguel de Icaza agreed to allow Stallman to stay at his place for a couple days. Stallman grossly overstayed, and later invited another person(!) to stay with him in the room he was borrowing from de Icaza. That is, to say the least, relevant information for anyone else who might consider lending him a guest bedroom.

serf 7y ago
>That is, to say the least, relevant information for anyone else who might consider lending him a guest bedroom. Sure, but that's not what's going on in that thread. It's basically just a pissing contest, with participants across the internet, about 'ridiculous' stories involving RMS. A link to the famous rms-foot meme is by no means a warning to future hospitable folks. It's not some neighborhood watch newsletter to warn about a predator, it's just a bunch of people who have been given the social go-ahead to share stories that they wouldn't otherwise have -- while simultaneously vying for social credit from others with regards to how hospitable they say they were. In other words, i'm not buying the supposed good intentions 'we must warn others' perspective here. If anything, it seems like group therapy for those that feel scorned by RMS to get together and share war-stories. That's fine -- but let's not paint it like they're adamantly trying to prevent RMS from victimizing someone. Back in my day it was called 'gossiping', and it was usually poor form.
- tptacek 7y ago
  I've described literally the first comments in the thread, which are what was actually linked here. It seems a little weird to hold an HN comment accountable for every random thing anyone on Twitter said in response to de Icaza.
  - stefan_ 7y ago
    You were responding to a comment that stated > that whole thread is a pretty gross social lynch mob
    - tptacek 7y ago
      The comments I'm referring to are a part of the whole thread and are obviously not a "gross social lynch mob". "I offered this person a bed for a couple days, they stayed for months, and invited a stranger to live in my house" is a pretty straightforward kernel of useful information.
topmonk 7y ago
Now what's the ugliest, awful story about your behavior? Kindly share it publicly along with proof of your actual identity. This is relevant information for anyone who might consider giving you a job, having a relationship with you, or renting you a place to stay, so it's totally appropriate to air your dirty laundry in a entirely public forum and associate it to your real identity. Thank you.
- tptacek 7y ago
  There's a name for things like "the ugliest, awful story known about your behavior"; they're called "your reputation".
  - quotemstr 7y ago
    It used to be possible to reform one's reputation. Now, people with a grudge will spread old stories about you to strangers for as long as you live and make it impossible for you to get back on your feet. Is that a just society? The guy is an old man who's already been stripped of all positions of influence. Why do you want to make him sleep on the street too? At what point will you believe justice has been served? Attacking the defenseless and powerless is cruelty itself.
    - tptacek 7y ago
      You're hyperventilating. I don't want anyone to sleep on the street and very much doubt Stallman will meet that fate. At the same time: Stallman has a reputation as a houseguest, and it is relevant to this branch of the discussion.
      - quotemstr 7y ago
        Oh, I'm sure you don't want him to sleep on the street. It's just interesting that you're doing everything in your power to bring about that situation.
        7y ago
craigsmansion 7y ago
Did Miguel ask him to leave? Or did he just sit around passive-aggressively for 3 whole months? Also, rms called Miguel "a traitor to the Free Software community" at some point, and now with the whole MIT business, he gets in with the twitter defamation league spouting off his grievances. That's pretty much beyond cowardly and into despicable territory.
- hutzlibu 7y ago
  It is cowardly, if he actually did not ask him to leave. But it seems you don't know that, just made the assumption and jumped to the conclusion.
  - craigsmansion 7y ago
    No, I think it's cowardly regardless to spout his grievances at this particular moment. If he did not ask him to leave, that would make it despicable in my eyes.
    - tptacek 7y ago
      On the other hand, he at least had the courage to sign his name to what he had to say.
      - craigsmansion 7y ago
        > he at least had the courage to sign his name to what he had to say. Which is neither here nor there, but thanks for playing.
      - enriquto 7y ago
        he didn't, really. Only after the hordes were finishing RMS, he found the "courage" to speak
        hutzlibu 7y ago
        Yes, because before he was scared of being finished by the hordes of RMS, for citicicing their idol. So yes, a weak person, but it is still telling, that now so many speak up who did not dare to do so before. Weak and pathetic? Maybe yes. But still telling about RMS.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

happytoexplain 7y ago

There's a subtle, complex space between publicly talking shit for petty reasons about somebody who has just made mistakes, and sharing stories about somebody who is truly immoral for the purpose of helping others avoid suffering the same consequences. I don't claim that this is near either extreme of the spectrum, but it seems closer to the latter end, in my brief interpretation.

tptacek 7y ago
Or, just, if you're going to lend Stallman a guest bedroom, be aware of what might happen. Everything doesn't have to have a soaring, far-reaching philosophical purpose.

javajosh 7y ago

>I don't feel too great about any get-together where the topic at hand is , quite literally, let's speak ill of someone Oh, I don't know, that thread read more like relatively mild commiseration between people with first-hand experiences hosting RMS - which all sounded rather chagrined/amused more than anything, at least in retrospect. (Admittedly such talk is better in person over drinks, but it's hardly the "cancel culture" type mob you see nowadays.)

kace91 7y ago

“There is a sort of camaraderie that rarely exists except between men who have fought the same enemies and known the same women.”

DefensiveAlt 7y ago

The problem here is that when one person says something, it is an isolated incident, when a group says something it is a pile on. Many people seem to have rms bad behaviour stories, but a quick glance shows that there there is no shortage of people to respond antagonistically to any bad word spoken. I have only met rms once in the 90's, he made quite a poor impression. While it was nothing to condemn, it was enough to keep a skeptical eye on the cult of personality that surrounds him. Over the years that followed I encountered enough people who have stories that they were not prepared to share publicly because it would be more detrimental to themselves than rms. In my opinion I am much less concerned about the hypotheticals shared in emails that precipitated the current situation. The issues that worry me are the stories of inconsiderate, manipulative, or outright bullying behaviour. I have no accusations to make of my own, but I support those who feel like they now have an opportunity to be heard.

DanBC 7y ago

> but I don't feel too great about any get-together where the topic at hand is , quite literally, let's speak ill of someone. People saying RMS shouldn't be leading open source projects are now stuck. If they don't give details of all the times RMS has behaved unacceptably someone will say "but what has he actually done?", and if they do give details of poor behaviour someone will say "the social lynch mob is unpleasant".