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In addition to the qualms about whether this sort of point system represents a movement toward a "social-credit" system, I have another question: What the hell

by jMyles 7y ago

In addition to the qualms about whether this sort of point system represents a movement toward a "social-credit" system, I have another question: What the hell does this have to do with education? I have no problem with gamefication or apps like ClassDojo, but I have to say: the teacher opting to track bathroom breaks (and even apply a penalty by dint of them) comes as no surprise to me given the bizarre norms of educational institutions. It is in the shadow of these bizarre norms that we need to consider the appropriateness of scoring systems and interfaces. I have never understood what things like hall passes, the pledge of allegiance, and double-file-by-sex lines at doors and cafeterias have to do with learning and nurturing. They seem unambiguously oppositional. A 5th grader (typically a 10 or 11-year old) is absolutely old enough to understand when they need to use the bathroom, walk there by themselves, and return to their classroom, picking up context clues from a capable teacher to plug back into the material without feeling (or being) left out. Heck, many 4 year olds are capable of this. What is the point of education if the culture of its institutions is insistent on treating students as though they are incapable of coherent thought in the first place?

saagarjha 7y ago
I think the point of bathroom passes is to prevent disruptions from students who aren’t interested in paying attention in class.
- jMyles 7y ago
  Sure, that's one of many excuses given for their existence. But the underlying point, obviously, is: why are students not interested in paying attention? What is wrong with these classes? We're talking about an age group whose attention is easily kept by things that are fun, exciting, interesting, engaging. If classes aren't that, then hall passes don't help.
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    It takes a non-trivial amount of effort to make classes that are engaging to students, especially if you're trying to cater to all of them. It's a lot easier to just slap a band-aid over it and try to prevent "distractions" (which, in my experience, doesn't really help: kids are exceptionally brilliant at finding ways to fidget or play with the most ordinary of things when they're not interested).
  - alexis_fr 7y ago
    Many things are wrong about the current school system, but the best is just to let a 14 years old girl talk about it: https://www.bitchute.com/video/oiZWLadcxYEu/ https://www.bitchute.com/video/oiZWLadcxYEu/
    - anigbrowl 7y ago
      Flagged for promoting extremism.
    - htfu 7y ago
      Wait is this why the alt-right hates Greta Thunberg so much, they already had their own bizarro version?
- cosmodisk 7y ago
  I was saying this 20 years ago,when I was at school,and I'd say it today again:screw them.If someone isn't interested in education,transfer them to some sort of special needs class,where he/she would match the rest,as there's absolutely no point of dragging the entire class because of a few rotten apples. Of course, social services should work closely with school in case there are issues in the family that may be causing it.Same applies at work,where you get 20 people on the same salary,yet a couple require 20 times more attention because of x,y,z...
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    As I've mentioned below, I'm not talking about students who aren't "interested in education", I'm talking about classes that are fundamentally dull to the point that students find it reasonable to find distractions rather than focus on what's being taught.
  - EvanAnderson 7y ago
    Edit: I am re-thinking the liability associated with what I originally wrote here. Sorry to harm the discussion with this edit but I need to be careful.
    - cosmodisk 7y ago
      I agree that it's not easy,it never was.Do you happen to have a link to read on the case or could write what was the outcome?
      - EvanAnderson 7y ago
        It ended up being an out-of-court settlement. The parties were _very_ litigious. I was only involved as a contractor on public records requests. I want to be insanely careful about giving much in the way of details. I know that doesn't do much to bolster what I wrote, but I also need to be careful about exposing myself or a Customer to any liability. You can find the kind of cases I'm talking about by searching for "FAPE" (free appropriate public education) and "ADHD", "disability", and such.
EvanAnderson 7y ago
The authoritarian and arbitrary part of the public education system is partially about conditioning children to respect authority. It's a byproduct of the industrial revolution needing a supply of subservient workers.
Wowfunhappy 7y ago
> The teacher opting to track bathroom breaks (and even apply a penalty by dint of them) comes as no surprise to me given the bizarre norms of educational institutions. I've never taught a formal class in a school, but I've worked with this age group in similar contexts. I could potentially see myself making a policy wherein, whenever a student asks to use the bathroom during class, I say: "Go ahead, but next time, please go before class starts." I would never institute any actual consequences (although, I'd follow up if I noticed something truly excessive), but I'd keep repeating the line so they remember. Some 11-year-olds absolutely need to be reminded to use the bathroom ahead of time. Just because they're capable of not soiling themselves doesn't mean they'll actually plan ahead to avoid going at inopportune times. The fact that this is all being quantified in an app is a separate issue. I find that problematic on a number of levels...
RHSeeger 7y ago
> A 5th grader (typically a 10 or 11-year old) is absolutely old enough to understand when they need to use the bathroom I see these types of arguments a lot. You're focusing on the good students and the fact that this type of thing isn't needed for them. Rather, consider that this rule is made to curb the behavior of the bad students; the ones that are taking bathroom breaks during class every day because they don't feel like being in class. If that is the reason for the rule, then the your argument (which only applies to the children that are trying to do the right thing in the first place) doesn't have any weight.
- jMyles 7y ago
  > he bad students; the ones that are taking bathroom breaks during class every day because they don't feel like being in class. This is an abhorrent and inappropriate judgment. I have dealt with a lot of the people you are describing and, in many cases, found the smart, motivated, wonderful, curious, kickass students inside them. Many, many people do not want, at 10 or 11 years of age, sit through a class full of stupid, boring, authoritarian bullshit when they can be doing something (that they perceive to be) useful, like playing minecraft or soccer or learning how to play the drums. There is nothing "bad" about this. The "bad" is the way these people are treated. And to be clear: by your judgment, I was a bad student. Many of us here on HN were or are, I'm sure, bad students. My success is due in no small part to people in my life who stood up to the people casting the exact judgment you are casting here. > I see these types of arguments a lot. If that's true, I don't understand why you haven't learned to respond to them in an appropriate, adult manner. I realize that my tone sounds combative, but I am taking this tone because I want anyone reading this thread who might feel judged by your words to know that this is not a reasonable way to approach this subject and is not welcome in actual serious discussions of education reform.
  - RHSeeger 7y ago
    > my tone sounds combative That's because your tone is combative. Certain things are expected of students, and some children are not willing or able to do those things. That makes them a bad student; the same way that someone that won't run would make a bad soccer player. It doesn't make them a bad person. It doesn't mean they can't become a good student by changing their behavior. But they _are_ a bad student. You can argue that what is expected of a student should change, and you appear to be doing that in a roundabout way (by calling the current curriculum "stupid, boring, authoritarian bullshit "). But that doesn't change the fact that individuals who will/can not participate as expected with the current expectations are, by definition, bad students.

by jMyles 7y ago

saagarjha 7y ago

I think the point of bathroom passes is to prevent disruptions from students who aren’t interested in paying attention in class.

jMyles 7y ago
Sure, that's one of many excuses given for their existence. But the underlying point, obviously, is: why are students not interested in paying attention? What is wrong with these classes? We're talking about an age group whose attention is easily kept by things that are fun, exciting, interesting, engaging. If classes aren't that, then hall passes don't help.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  It takes a non-trivial amount of effort to make classes that are engaging to students, especially if you're trying to cater to all of them. It's a lot easier to just slap a band-aid over it and try to prevent "distractions" (which, in my experience, doesn't really help: kids are exceptionally brilliant at finding ways to fidget or play with the most ordinary of things when they're not interested).
- alexis_fr 7y ago
  Many things are wrong about the current school system, but the best is just to let a 14 years old girl talk about it: https://www.bitchute.com/video/oiZWLadcxYEu/ https://www.bitchute.com/video/oiZWLadcxYEu/
  - anigbrowl 7y ago
    Flagged for promoting extremism.
  - htfu 7y ago
    Wait is this why the alt-right hates Greta Thunberg so much, they already had their own bizarro version?
cosmodisk 7y ago
I was saying this 20 years ago,when I was at school,and I'd say it today again:screw them.If someone isn't interested in education,transfer them to some sort of special needs class,where he/she would match the rest,as there's absolutely no point of dragging the entire class because of a few rotten apples. Of course, social services should work closely with school in case there are issues in the family that may be causing it.Same applies at work,where you get 20 people on the same salary,yet a couple require 20 times more attention because of x,y,z...
- saagarjha 7y ago
  As I've mentioned below, I'm not talking about students who aren't "interested in education", I'm talking about classes that are fundamentally dull to the point that students find it reasonable to find distractions rather than focus on what's being taught.
- EvanAnderson 7y ago
  Edit: I am re-thinking the liability associated with what I originally wrote here. Sorry to harm the discussion with this edit but I need to be careful.
  - cosmodisk 7y ago
    I agree that it's not easy,it never was.Do you happen to have a link to read on the case or could write what was the outcome?
    - EvanAnderson 7y ago
      It ended up being an out-of-court settlement. The parties were _very_ litigious. I was only involved as a contractor on public records requests. I want to be insanely careful about giving much in the way of details. I know that doesn't do much to bolster what I wrote, but I also need to be careful about exposing myself or a Customer to any liability. You can find the kind of cases I'm talking about by searching for "FAPE" (free appropriate public education) and "ADHD", "disability", and such.

EvanAnderson 7y ago

The authoritarian and arbitrary part of the public education system is partially about conditioning children to respect authority. It's a byproduct of the industrial revolution needing a supply of subservient workers.

Wowfunhappy 7y ago

> The teacher opting to track bathroom breaks (and even apply a penalty by dint of them) comes as no surprise to me given the bizarre norms of educational institutions. I've never taught a formal class in a school, but I've worked with this age group in similar contexts. I could potentially see myself making a policy wherein, whenever a student asks to use the bathroom during class, I say: "Go ahead, but next time, please go before class starts." I would never institute any actual consequences (although, I'd follow up if I noticed something truly excessive), but I'd keep repeating the line so they remember. Some 11-year-olds absolutely need to be reminded to use the bathroom ahead of time. Just because they're capable of not soiling themselves doesn't mean they'll actually plan ahead to avoid going at inopportune times. The fact that this is all being quantified in an app is a separate issue. I find that problematic on a number of levels...

RHSeeger 7y ago

> A 5th grader (typically a 10 or 11-year old) is absolutely old enough to understand when they need to use the bathroom I see these types of arguments a lot. You're focusing on the good students and the fact that this type of thing isn't needed for them. Rather, consider that this rule is made to curb the behavior of the bad students; the ones that are taking bathroom breaks during class every day because they don't feel like being in class. If that is the reason for the rule, then the your argument (which only applies to the children that are trying to do the right thing in the first place) doesn't have any weight.

jMyles 7y ago
> he bad students; the ones that are taking bathroom breaks during class every day because they don't feel like being in class. This is an abhorrent and inappropriate judgment. I have dealt with a lot of the people you are describing and, in many cases, found the smart, motivated, wonderful, curious, kickass students inside them. Many, many people do not want, at 10 or 11 years of age, sit through a class full of stupid, boring, authoritarian bullshit when they can be doing something (that they perceive to be) useful, like playing minecraft or soccer or learning how to play the drums. There is nothing "bad" about this. The "bad" is the way these people are treated. And to be clear: by your judgment, I was a bad student. Many of us here on HN were or are, I'm sure, bad students. My success is due in no small part to people in my life who stood up to the people casting the exact judgment you are casting here. > I see these types of arguments a lot. If that's true, I don't understand why you haven't learned to respond to them in an appropriate, adult manner. I realize that my tone sounds combative, but I am taking this tone because I want anyone reading this thread who might feel judged by your words to know that this is not a reasonable way to approach this subject and is not welcome in actual serious discussions of education reform.
- RHSeeger 7y ago
  > my tone sounds combative That's because your tone is combative. Certain things are expected of students, and some children are not willing or able to do those things. That makes them a bad student; the same way that someone that won't run would make a bad soccer player. It doesn't make them a bad person. It doesn't mean they can't become a good student by changing their behavior. But they _are_ a bad student. You can argue that what is expected of a student should change, and you appear to be doing that in a roundabout way (by calling the current curriculum "stupid, boring, authoritarian bullshit "). But that doesn't change the fact that individuals who will/can not participate as expected with the current expectations are, by definition, bad students.