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Kickstarter doubles down on its anti-union stance

105 points by kaboro 7y ago

wolco 7y ago
Pro or con of the union idea, I hope get they nailed for firing those two organizers. Firing someone and claiming poor performance makes me not want to support them anymore. I won't give them a cent.
- parsimo2010 7y ago
  I’ve not met either the Kickstarter management nor the people that were fired, but isn’t it possible that these folks knew they were poor performers and were on borrowed time with the company? They may have wanted to start a union that could bargain on their behalf with a lot more power. I’m not saying that unions created in good faith are bad, but there are union leaders that give off a vibe of self-enrichment. Kind of like political lobbies- some are good, some are bad. I don’t know if we should take the fired employees’ word for why they were fired. I’ve seen too many “bottom 5%ers” make up excuses why they were fired when the reality is that they plain couldn’t hack it. I’ll reserve judgement until there is a court case or a settlement. If it really is a slam-dunk case like the Twitter-verse makes it out to be, there are lawyers that are begging to help these poor souls.
  - paulcole 7y ago
    Doesn’t sound like you’ve reserved judgement. Your comment makes it pretty clear where you stand.
    - parsimo2010 7y ago
      I have reserved judgement. I'm not crucifying Kickstarter for firing some people, and I'm also not attacking the people that were fired. I'm leaving room on both sides due to the fact that these people were fired and I've only heard one side. I'm just mentioning that it would be completely reasonable for Kickstarter to have fired three people that were low performers and they also happened to be involved in the union effort. Two of the three were on performance improvement plans and one was told that they should have been on a plan. I did mention that it wouldn't be unusual if the fired people were making excuses, but I didn't say that they definitely were just making excuses. The people that haven't reserved judgement are the ones saying that "I hope Kickstarter really gets it."
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - unreal37 7y ago
    I hadn't thought of it until I read your comment, but when I worked for the government, the people who were MOST familiar with the contract, the rules, the exact things that I could ask them to do and the things they were allowed to refuse... were the worst teammates. There was a lot of really good people at the government. And they never talked about their contract. But then the two worst employees on the team were very, very familiar with their rights down to the letter. There's some type of correlation there. The more you know the exact wording of the union contract, the more you talk about it, the less interested you are in serving the end customers to the best of your abilities. If someone asks you to do something, and your default answer is that it's not in your contract, you're not approaching things in the right way.
    - danShumway 7y ago
      > the people who were MOST familiar with the contract, the rules, the exact things that I could ask them to do and the things they were allowed to refuse... were the worst teammates. Apply this comment to workers and employers and it sound reasonable. Rephrase this comment to apply to civilians and police officers and it sounds horrible, even though in both cases we can argue that the goal is to not have adversarial, competitive relationships, and instead to trust each other. I am somewhat skeptical about unions, and I don't think they're the silver bullet that people claim they are. I sympathize with people who worry about adding additional layers to management. There is no such thing as an incorruptible organization. But, I'm opposed to any insinuation that knowing your rights and exercising them is something to be ashamed of, in any context. > If someone asks you to do something, and your default answer is that it's not in your contract, you're not approaching things in the right way. Again, this sounds reasonable. But it makes me feel really weird, and I think its the implication (intended or not) that being a good employee means not thinking about whether or not you're being taken advantage of. It is very difficult for me to imagine any employer I've ever worked for arguing the same thing in the opposite direction. Employers know their contracts, they hire entire legal teams who are entirely dedicated to knowing the contract. Shouldn't the employee also know the contract? Mutual respect means not going out of your way to have power over another person; it means viewing them as an equal. If only one side of a business relationship is paying attention to and enforcing a contract, then that's not respectful; it's an unhealthy power dynamic.
panpanna 7y ago
Just as I was about to back Jeri Ellsworths project :( Damn you conscious!
thinkingkong 7y ago
Are there any fields similar to software development where there are unions? And if so how is that actually working?
- tptacek 7y ago
  Most of the professions have professional associations, which serve some but not all of the the purposes of a shop floor union.
- CPLX 7y ago
  Most of the motion picture and television world, which is also responsible for producing digital content, and also has wide disparities in talent between people with similar titles, is unionized.
- barry-cotter 7y ago
  It works great for the Screen Actor’s Guild and the rest of the film industry. They set minimum wages and use their market power to radically restrict entry so that there’s less competition from outsiders, by not working with firms that employ non-members and expelling members that do. Any Software Professionals Guild could do the same, reduce the supply of competitors and punish people who employed any entry level workers who didn’t have the connections to get in. One benefit, for current members, is that you can increase the cost of membership for new members. So you start off letting boot camp graduates work, then restrict it to Bachelor’s holders, (who must be taught by members of course), then to a Master’s. You see the ever increasing credentialism in physiotherapy in the US, where you’re now required to have a “professional doctorate”. Pure waste given that it’s an apprenticeship in Germany and a Bachelor’s everywhere else.
  - laurencerowe 7y ago
    "According to the most recent SAG statistics, the average member earns $52,000 a year, while the vast majority take home less than $1,000 a year from acting jobs." - https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/hollywood-salaries-revealed-movie-stars-737321 https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/hollywood-salaries-re... [2014] This doesn't sound very similar to the market for Software Engineers where there is a shortage of skilled labour.
tptacek 7y ago
Current Affairs can be a fun read (Nathan Robinson, who is an extremely weird dude, writes long-long-long-form takedowns of right-wing figures). But it's also an outlet with a very clear political perspective ("workers should own the means of production" would be a reasonable first approximation; "Elizabeth Warren is dangerously conservative" is an illustrative claim), so bear that in mind as you read.
- ohashi 7y ago
  The author even writes "As a left publication," which makes their stance incredibly clear. It's not hidden by them at all.
  - tptacek 7y ago
    I wouldn't want to have suggested that Robinson is unclear about this, and I think even a glance at the front page of Current Affairs makes it clear.
- tanderson92 7y ago
  Could you possibly elaborate on why you feel Nathan Robinson is an extremely weird dude? I only know about him from his writing in Current Affairs (and famously his take-downs).
  - cwyers 7y ago
    https://sociology.fas.harvard.edu/people/nathan-robinson https://sociology.fas.harvard.edu/people/nathan-robinson “He is also the author of _The Man Who Accidentally Wore His Cravat to a Gymnasium_, a children's book about fashion and conformity.“ And he speaks with a British accent but grew up in the US.
    - tptacek 7y ago
      Amusingly, in his takedown of Elizabeth Warren, he equates time spent at Harvard to time spent working for Chevron. Just, weird dude.
stevespang 7y ago
When it comes down to brass tacks, after all the bluster and maneuvering, the last button to push for greedy corporations is the frickin lawyers - - I hope the NLRB crushes them . . .
mimikatz 7y ago
It is interesting that they didn't stop their active KickStarter campaign and pushed people to not pull their donations. It would be nice for them to walk the walk, they did create a petition in response... If I were the CEO I would feel pretty safe about moving forward with the same policies.
- jolux 7y ago
  Did you read the whole article? They _are_ pulling their campaign, after KS doubled down.
  - mimikatz 7y ago
    Did you read it? They just stopped promoting it. It is literally still up https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/804992239/help-current-affairs-expand-in-2020?ref=user_menu https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/804992239/help-current-... . They claim they won't be back... but we will see about that "We were unable to continue promoting our campaign, because every time we did, people criticized us for partnering with an anti-union company, which you have now admitted you are. As a result of our inability to promote the campaign in good conscience, our fundraiser has made far less money than it otherwise could have. "
SomeOtherThrow 7y ago
The lack of unions in the industry is making me leave. It’s going to leave out many of its current employees to dry: I want something better than the word of an entrepreneur.
- baron816 7y ago
  If a tech company I worked for unionized, I would leave. I’m not in a single company town where everyone has worked at the same place their entire lives. Tech companies face fierce competition for talent, and it has worked out quite nicely for the employees. I wouldn’t want some outside organization coming in and forcing me to pay dues, demanding changes to the structure of the company, devaluing my equity, and making it impossible to fire poor performers that make my job harder.
  - CPLX 7y ago
    You’re aware that the major professional sports in the US are unionized right? Do you think the competition for talent for them is more or less fierce than it is for you?
    - baron816 7y ago
      That’s the worst example you could’ve used. Pro sports leagues are monopolies with a large percentage of potential players/workers being left out of the market.
      - eropple 7y ago
        Only MLB is a monopoly.
        parsimo2010 7y ago
        Can you expand on that? It seems like the NFL and NBA are also monopolies. I can't think of any organization, even worldwide, that could compete in their sports. There is arena football, but that is a laughable alternative to the NFL. The top foreign pros play in the NBA, they do not stay in their home leagues. It seems a lot like there is no choice of where to play for top pros in these sports, which makes them a monopoly. An alternative that doesn't seem quite like a monopoly is the UFC with mixed martial arts. Bellator MMA is a viable (but less prestigious) alternative for someone that doesn't want to work with the UFC.
lonelappde 7y ago
The most interesting twist here is how it shows that "public benefit corporation" is an empty concept.
danShumway 7y ago
Regardless of whether anyone is pro or anti union, it's been obvious for a while now that Kickstarter isn't arguing in good faith about this. They are going to war with their own employees. There's just no justification for that, even if you think unions are bad. Kickstarter keeps digging themselves deeper and deeper into this hole, claiming that they're doing it because unions will alter the relationship they have with employees. Even if that's true -- you know what really alters the relationship you have with employees? Firing them whenever they try to exercise their rights. It's pretty hard to believe an employer has your back when they are actively threatening you and telling you they won't acknowledge any of the decisions you make. Kickstarter's owners and managers have proven that they're able to build a hostile work environment just fine on their own, without anybody else's help. I don't see any way for them to save face at this point beyond just sitting down and saying, "we were wrong, we treated you like children, and you have the right to decide how you want to negotiate with us."
- unreal37 7y ago
  Doesn't seem that you have the facts, but you're convinced that one side is right.
  - danShumway 7y ago
    I'm open to hearing additional facts, but it's difficult for me to imagine what new information could come out that would change this situation. Regardless of whether or not the employees were actually fired for purely performance reasons, multiple workers have come forward and said that they believe the firings were related to union organization. It doesn't really matter what the intentions were, that's going to end up creating a hostile environment between workers and managers. Let's assume for a sec that Kickstarter is completely acting in good faith -- well, there's being right and there's being smart, and the smart choice would have been to recognize that they're in a very volatile situation, and to temporarily hold off on making moves that could be misinterpreted as adversarial by their workforce. Maybe that doesn't sound fair, but it's Kickstarter's job to maintain a functional work environment, not to be fair, and all evidence I've seen suggests that the current work environment is suffering. In regards to other facts -- that Kickstarter won't voluntarily recognize employees decisions until required to through a legal vote, or that Kickstarter is openly campaigning against the union efforts -- again, I'm open to hearing another side to this, but this is first-hand information coming from press releases from Kickstarter itself. Again, you don't have to be pro or anti union to think it's crappy for a company to insert itself into its employees' conversations about bargaining decisions, and then to claim that it won't recognize those decisions because doing so would somehow corrupt the neutrality of the process. I'm not sure what facts could come up in the future that would make that turn into a good faith argument?
pmikesell 7y ago
I worry that tech workers may be under-informed about what a union may mean. A union can be in many ways similar to a corporation with its own power structure and demands. Just 4 examples from my time in a union shop: 1) Pay raise and promotion via seniority only 2) Being warned by the shop steward that I was "working too fast" 3) Heavy coercion to contribute to specific political candidates 4) Going on strike for reasons I didn't agree with Maybe a tech union would turn out better somehow. I for one would not want to go back to that situation.
- unreal37 7y ago
  Unions have their own goals that are more than just "the interests of Kickstarter employees". So in fact, there will be times when issues are important to Kickstarter employees but are not important to their union. Or important to the union but not very many employees. And then what?
  - theamk 7y ago
    I thought the whole point of unions was to represent interests of employees? If the Kickstarter employees' issues are not important to their union, why would they unionize?
    - evgen 7y ago
      The Kickstarter employees can create a “Union of Kickstarter Employees” and then try to build the negotiating and benefits infrastructure themselves, or they can join a much larger union and get the benefits of shared infrastructure. The benefit of the former is that it will be hyper-focussed on the needs of that group but it will cost more and probably be a lot less effective. A larger union costs each employee less and gives them a lot more “muscle” when it becomes necessary to negotiate but the downside is that they are one small group among many when it comes to setting overall policy or goals. Think of a union as a business whose job is to protect employees and provide them with some benefits. Some unions will be giants with horrible customer service and corporate goals that seem to be more about self-perpetuation and some unions will be smaller and more focussed on the needs of a specific industry. Each type serves different needs.
chriselles 7y ago
Open Collective is an alternative to 501(3)(c) for some orgs. I wonder if an Open Collective -esque model could work for employees as an alternative to unions? I applaud the benefits that early unions brought to workers, but what have they done lately(as in decades) I. Terms of creating/capturing value? My experience with unions was an an employee of Amazon.com in the 90’s and witnessing the horrible things WashTech and it’s supporters did to my staff in a failed attempt to gain access to Amazon distribution centers. It would be cool if there was a very light digital network model by which employees could collectively engage with company management/leadership. As well as far less adversarial, more akin to collaborative labour/leadership relationship as found in Germany.
throwawaysea 7y ago
What are the obligations of a US corporation when a vote for unionization is successful? Do all employees get opted in? Is it always required to be hiring exclusive to the union? What makes unions different (needing specialized legislation) from corporations - why can’t employees wanting to unionize just go form their own corporation and try to sell their services on their own terms that way.
fzeroracer 7y ago
I find it interesting that Kickstarter decided to go this route. It debunks the claims in the earlier HN thread [1] that the employees were fired due to performance reasons or somehow, conspiracy against Kickstarter. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20972901 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20972901
theamk 7y ago
I don't understand: Nathan: "Would not voluntarily recognize a union even if the vast majority of workers signed in support of one." The CEO's statement he referenced: " If a majority of the staff in an appropriate bargaining unit votes in favor of a union in an NLRB election, we will fully respect that choice and negotiate in good faith toward a collective bargaining agreement." Those statements seem to be opposite of each other?
- Mathnerd314 7y ago
  NLRB elections have a lot of requirements. E.g. the NRLB has been back and forth on whether graduate students can form a union: https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2019/09/20/nlrb-reverses-course-graduate-students-right-organize-employees/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2019/09/20/nlrb-rev... If everything goes smoothly it takes a month or two: https://www.laboremploymentlawblog.com/2015/03/articles/collective-bargaining/nlrb-quickie-election-rule-accelerates-the-union-organizing-process/ https://www.laboremploymentlawblog.com/2015/03/articles/coll... NRLB elections are legally binding, so the CEO statement there is basically "we will follow the law". The process Nathan is referring to is something a lot less formal where they pass around a petition to form a union and it gets a bunch of signatures. Not recognizing such a petition is consistent with Kickstarter's stance of not supporting unions. Apparently there's also a 50% rule where if 50% sign authorization cards for the union then they can ask to be recognized directly (https://definitions.uslegal.com/a/authorization-card/ https://definitions.uslegal.com/a/authorization-card/), but nobody seems to be discussing that, probably because actual support for the union is low and getting even the 30% for an election will be difficult. In May there were 28 public supporters (https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/evjb47/workers-accuse-kickstarter-of-union-busting-in-federal-complaint https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/evjb47/workers-accuse-kic...), but KS has 152 employees so they'd need 18 more employees just for an election.
turtlecloud 7y ago
On one hand you have good companies. On the other hand you have terrible companies. Same thing with unions - some of them are good and some of them are bad.

105 points by kaboro 7y ago

Pro or con of the union idea, I hope get they nailed for firing those two organizers. Firing someone and claiming poor performance makes me not want to support them anymore. I won't give them a cent.

parsimo2010 7y ago
I’ve not met either the Kickstarter management nor the people that were fired, but isn’t it possible that these folks knew they were poor performers and were on borrowed time with the company? They may have wanted to start a union that could bargain on their behalf with a lot more power. I’m not saying that unions created in good faith are bad, but there are union leaders that give off a vibe of self-enrichment. Kind of like political lobbies- some are good, some are bad. I don’t know if we should take the fired employees’ word for why they were fired. I’ve seen too many “bottom 5%ers” make up excuses why they were fired when the reality is that they plain couldn’t hack it. I’ll reserve judgement until there is a court case or a settlement. If it really is a slam-dunk case like the Twitter-verse makes it out to be, there are lawyers that are begging to help these poor souls.
- paulcole 7y ago
  Doesn’t sound like you’ve reserved judgement. Your comment makes it pretty clear where you stand.
  - parsimo2010 7y ago
    I have reserved judgement. I'm not crucifying Kickstarter for firing some people, and I'm also not attacking the people that were fired. I'm leaving room on both sides due to the fact that these people were fired and I've only heard one side. I'm just mentioning that it would be completely reasonable for Kickstarter to have fired three people that were low performers and they also happened to be involved in the union effort. Two of the three were on performance improvement plans and one was told that they should have been on a plan. I did mention that it wouldn't be unusual if the fired people were making excuses, but I didn't say that they definitely were just making excuses. The people that haven't reserved judgement are the ones saying that "I hope Kickstarter really gets it."
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- unreal37 7y ago
  I hadn't thought of it until I read your comment, but when I worked for the government, the people who were MOST familiar with the contract, the rules, the exact things that I could ask them to do and the things they were allowed to refuse... were the worst teammates. There was a lot of really good people at the government. And they never talked about their contract. But then the two worst employees on the team were very, very familiar with their rights down to the letter. There's some type of correlation there. The more you know the exact wording of the union contract, the more you talk about it, the less interested you are in serving the end customers to the best of your abilities. If someone asks you to do something, and your default answer is that it's not in your contract, you're not approaching things in the right way.
  - danShumway 7y ago
    > the people who were MOST familiar with the contract, the rules, the exact things that I could ask them to do and the things they were allowed to refuse... were the worst teammates. Apply this comment to workers and employers and it sound reasonable. Rephrase this comment to apply to civilians and police officers and it sounds horrible, even though in both cases we can argue that the goal is to not have adversarial, competitive relationships, and instead to trust each other. I am somewhat skeptical about unions, and I don't think they're the silver bullet that people claim they are. I sympathize with people who worry about adding additional layers to management. There is no such thing as an incorruptible organization. But, I'm opposed to any insinuation that knowing your rights and exercising them is something to be ashamed of, in any context. > If someone asks you to do something, and your default answer is that it's not in your contract, you're not approaching things in the right way. Again, this sounds reasonable. But it makes me feel really weird, and I think its the implication (intended or not) that being a good employee means not thinking about whether or not you're being taken advantage of. It is very difficult for me to imagine any employer I've ever worked for arguing the same thing in the opposite direction. Employers know their contracts, they hire entire legal teams who are entirely dedicated to knowing the contract. Shouldn't the employee also know the contract? Mutual respect means not going out of your way to have power over another person; it means viewing them as an equal. If only one side of a business relationship is paying attention to and enforcing a contract, then that's not respectful; it's an unhealthy power dynamic.

panpanna 7y ago

Just as I was about to back Jeri Ellsworths project :( Damn you conscious!

thinkingkong 7y ago

Are there any fields similar to software development where there are unions? And if so how is that actually working?

tptacek 7y ago
Most of the professions have professional associations, which serve some but not all of the the purposes of a shop floor union.
CPLX 7y ago
Most of the motion picture and television world, which is also responsible for producing digital content, and also has wide disparities in talent between people with similar titles, is unionized.
barry-cotter 7y ago
It works great for the Screen Actor’s Guild and the rest of the film industry. They set minimum wages and use their market power to radically restrict entry so that there’s less competition from outsiders, by not working with firms that employ non-members and expelling members that do. Any Software Professionals Guild could do the same, reduce the supply of competitors and punish people who employed any entry level workers who didn’t have the connections to get in. One benefit, for current members, is that you can increase the cost of membership for new members. So you start off letting boot camp graduates work, then restrict it to Bachelor’s holders, (who must be taught by members of course), then to a Master’s. You see the ever increasing credentialism in physiotherapy in the US, where you’re now required to have a “professional doctorate”. Pure waste given that it’s an apprenticeship in Germany and a Bachelor’s everywhere else.
- laurencerowe 7y ago
  "According to the most recent SAG statistics, the average member earns $52,000 a year, while the vast majority take home less than $1,000 a year from acting jobs." - https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/hollywood-salaries-revealed-movie-stars-737321 https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/hollywood-salaries-re... [2014] This doesn't sound very similar to the market for Software Engineers where there is a shortage of skilled labour.

tptacek 7y ago

Current Affairs can be a fun read (Nathan Robinson, who is an extremely weird dude, writes long-long-long-form takedowns of right-wing figures). But it's also an outlet with a very clear political perspective ("workers should own the means of production" would be a reasonable first approximation; "Elizabeth Warren is dangerously conservative" is an illustrative claim), so bear that in mind as you read.

ohashi 7y ago
The author even writes "As a left publication," which makes their stance incredibly clear. It's not hidden by them at all.
- tptacek 7y ago
  I wouldn't want to have suggested that Robinson is unclear about this, and I think even a glance at the front page of Current Affairs makes it clear.
tanderson92 7y ago
Could you possibly elaborate on why you feel Nathan Robinson is an extremely weird dude? I only know about him from his writing in Current Affairs (and famously his take-downs).
- cwyers 7y ago
  https://sociology.fas.harvard.edu/people/nathan-robinson https://sociology.fas.harvard.edu/people/nathan-robinson “He is also the author of _The Man Who Accidentally Wore His Cravat to a Gymnasium_, a children's book about fashion and conformity.“ And he speaks with a British accent but grew up in the US.
  - tptacek 7y ago
    Amusingly, in his takedown of Elizabeth Warren, he equates time spent at Harvard to time spent working for Chevron. Just, weird dude.

stevespang 7y ago

When it comes down to brass tacks, after all the bluster and maneuvering, the last button to push for greedy corporations is the frickin lawyers - - I hope the NLRB crushes them . . .

mimikatz 7y ago

It is interesting that they didn't stop their active KickStarter campaign and pushed people to not pull their donations. It would be nice for them to walk the walk, they did create a petition in response... If I were the CEO I would feel pretty safe about moving forward with the same policies.

jolux 7y ago
Did you read the whole article? They _are_ pulling their campaign, after KS doubled down.
- mimikatz 7y ago
  Did you read it? They just stopped promoting it. It is literally still up https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/804992239/help-current-affairs-expand-in-2020?ref=user_menu https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/804992239/help-current-... . They claim they won't be back... but we will see about that "We were unable to continue promoting our campaign, because every time we did, people criticized us for partnering with an anti-union company, which you have now admitted you are. As a result of our inability to promote the campaign in good conscience, our fundraiser has made far less money than it otherwise could have. "

SomeOtherThrow 7y ago

The lack of unions in the industry is making me leave. It’s going to leave out many of its current employees to dry: I want something better than the word of an entrepreneur.

baron816 7y ago
If a tech company I worked for unionized, I would leave. I’m not in a single company town where everyone has worked at the same place their entire lives. Tech companies face fierce competition for talent, and it has worked out quite nicely for the employees. I wouldn’t want some outside organization coming in and forcing me to pay dues, demanding changes to the structure of the company, devaluing my equity, and making it impossible to fire poor performers that make my job harder.
- CPLX 7y ago
  You’re aware that the major professional sports in the US are unionized right? Do you think the competition for talent for them is more or less fierce than it is for you?
  - baron816 7y ago
    That’s the worst example you could’ve used. Pro sports leagues are monopolies with a large percentage of potential players/workers being left out of the market.
    - eropple 7y ago
      Only MLB is a monopoly.
      - parsimo2010 7y ago
        Can you expand on that? It seems like the NFL and NBA are also monopolies. I can't think of any organization, even worldwide, that could compete in their sports. There is arena football, but that is a laughable alternative to the NFL. The top foreign pros play in the NBA, they do not stay in their home leagues. It seems a lot like there is no choice of where to play for top pros in these sports, which makes them a monopoly. An alternative that doesn't seem quite like a monopoly is the UFC with mixed martial arts. Bellator MMA is a viable (but less prestigious) alternative for someone that doesn't want to work with the UFC.

lonelappde 7y ago

The most interesting twist here is how it shows that "public benefit corporation" is an empty concept.

danShumway 7y ago

Regardless of whether anyone is pro or anti union, it's been obvious for a while now that Kickstarter isn't arguing in good faith about this. They are going to war with their own employees. There's just no justification for that, even if you think unions are bad. Kickstarter keeps digging themselves deeper and deeper into this hole, claiming that they're doing it because unions will alter the relationship they have with employees. Even if that's true -- you know what really alters the relationship you have with employees? Firing them whenever they try to exercise their rights. It's pretty hard to believe an employer has your back when they are actively threatening you and telling you they won't acknowledge any of the decisions you make. Kickstarter's owners and managers have proven that they're able to build a hostile work environment just fine on their own, without anybody else's help. I don't see any way for them to save face at this point beyond just sitting down and saying, "we were wrong, we treated you like children, and you have the right to decide how you want to negotiate with us."

unreal37 7y ago
Doesn't seem that you have the facts, but you're convinced that one side is right.
- danShumway 7y ago
  I'm open to hearing additional facts, but it's difficult for me to imagine what new information could come out that would change this situation. Regardless of whether or not the employees were actually fired for purely performance reasons, multiple workers have come forward and said that they believe the firings were related to union organization. It doesn't really matter what the intentions were, that's going to end up creating a hostile environment between workers and managers. Let's assume for a sec that Kickstarter is completely acting in good faith -- well, there's being right and there's being smart, and the smart choice would have been to recognize that they're in a very volatile situation, and to temporarily hold off on making moves that could be misinterpreted as adversarial by their workforce. Maybe that doesn't sound fair, but it's Kickstarter's job to maintain a functional work environment, not to be fair, and all evidence I've seen suggests that the current work environment is suffering. In regards to other facts -- that Kickstarter won't voluntarily recognize employees decisions until required to through a legal vote, or that Kickstarter is openly campaigning against the union efforts -- again, I'm open to hearing another side to this, but this is first-hand information coming from press releases from Kickstarter itself. Again, you don't have to be pro or anti union to think it's crappy for a company to insert itself into its employees' conversations about bargaining decisions, and then to claim that it won't recognize those decisions because doing so would somehow corrupt the neutrality of the process. I'm not sure what facts could come up in the future that would make that turn into a good faith argument?

pmikesell 7y ago

I worry that tech workers may be under-informed about what a union may mean. A union can be in many ways similar to a corporation with its own power structure and demands. Just 4 examples from my time in a union shop: 1) Pay raise and promotion via seniority only 2) Being warned by the shop steward that I was "working too fast" 3) Heavy coercion to contribute to specific political candidates 4) Going on strike for reasons I didn't agree with Maybe a tech union would turn out better somehow. I for one would not want to go back to that situation.

unreal37 7y ago
Unions have their own goals that are more than just "the interests of Kickstarter employees". So in fact, there will be times when issues are important to Kickstarter employees but are not important to their union. Or important to the union but not very many employees. And then what?
- theamk 7y ago
  I thought the whole point of unions was to represent interests of employees? If the Kickstarter employees' issues are not important to their union, why would they unionize?
  - evgen 7y ago
    The Kickstarter employees can create a “Union of Kickstarter Employees” and then try to build the negotiating and benefits infrastructure themselves, or they can join a much larger union and get the benefits of shared infrastructure. The benefit of the former is that it will be hyper-focussed on the needs of that group but it will cost more and probably be a lot less effective. A larger union costs each employee less and gives them a lot more “muscle” when it becomes necessary to negotiate but the downside is that they are one small group among many when it comes to setting overall policy or goals. Think of a union as a business whose job is to protect employees and provide them with some benefits. Some unions will be giants with horrible customer service and corporate goals that seem to be more about self-perpetuation and some unions will be smaller and more focussed on the needs of a specific industry. Each type serves different needs.

chriselles 7y ago

Open Collective is an alternative to 501(3)(c) for some orgs. I wonder if an Open Collective -esque model could work for employees as an alternative to unions? I applaud the benefits that early unions brought to workers, but what have they done lately(as in decades) I. Terms of creating/capturing value? My experience with unions was an an employee of Amazon.com in the 90’s and witnessing the horrible things WashTech and it’s supporters did to my staff in a failed attempt to gain access to Amazon distribution centers. It would be cool if there was a very light digital network model by which employees could collectively engage with company management/leadership. As well as far less adversarial, more akin to collaborative labour/leadership relationship as found in Germany.

throwawaysea 7y ago

What are the obligations of a US corporation when a vote for unionization is successful? Do all employees get opted in? Is it always required to be hiring exclusive to the union? What makes unions different (needing specialized legislation) from corporations - why can’t employees wanting to unionize just go form their own corporation and try to sell their services on their own terms that way.

fzeroracer 7y ago

I find it interesting that Kickstarter decided to go this route. It debunks the claims in the earlier HN thread [1] that the employees were fired due to performance reasons or somehow, conspiracy against Kickstarter. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20972901 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20972901

theamk 7y ago

I don't understand: Nathan: "Would not voluntarily recognize a union even if the vast majority of workers signed in support of one." The CEO's statement he referenced: " If a majority of the staff in an appropriate bargaining unit votes in favor of a union in an NLRB election, we will fully respect that choice and negotiate in good faith toward a collective bargaining agreement." Those statements seem to be opposite of each other?

Mathnerd314 7y ago
NLRB elections have a lot of requirements. E.g. the NRLB has been back and forth on whether graduate students can form a union: https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2019/09/20/nlrb-reverses-course-graduate-students-right-organize-employees/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2019/09/20/nlrb-rev... If everything goes smoothly it takes a month or two: https://www.laboremploymentlawblog.com/2015/03/articles/collective-bargaining/nlrb-quickie-election-rule-accelerates-the-union-organizing-process/ https://www.laboremploymentlawblog.com/2015/03/articles/coll... NRLB elections are legally binding, so the CEO statement there is basically "we will follow the law". The process Nathan is referring to is something a lot less formal where they pass around a petition to form a union and it gets a bunch of signatures. Not recognizing such a petition is consistent with Kickstarter's stance of not supporting unions. Apparently there's also a 50% rule where if 50% sign authorization cards for the union then they can ask to be recognized directly (https://definitions.uslegal.com/a/authorization-card/ https://definitions.uslegal.com/a/authorization-card/), but nobody seems to be discussing that, probably because actual support for the union is low and getting even the 30% for an election will be difficult. In May there were 28 public supporters (https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/evjb47/workers-accuse-kickstarter-of-union-busting-in-federal-complaint https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/evjb47/workers-accuse-kic...), but KS has 152 employees so they'd need 18 more employees just for an election.

turtlecloud 7y ago

On one hand you have good companies. On the other hand you have terrible companies. Same thing with unions - some of them are good and some of them are bad.