4 ms·

America cages innocent people They are not innocent, they are trespassers.

seamyb88 7y ago
Your white trash family are trespassers.
staybythebay 7y ago
I still fail to see how people fail to realize this point. Perhaps you can argue that the whole prison system needs to be reformed, but to make a special case for refugees from the south goes against fundamental laws that the US has. I feel like I’m in the minority for thinking that immigrants are welcome and great, so long as they’re legal. Dealing with illegal immigrating is something nobody wants to do. Nobody wakes up in the morning and hopes that we have a border crisis. However, laws need to be enforced, and clearly the treatment of these individuals does not deter the countless daily immigrants who nevertheless choose- willingly- to take the risk. I say all this as a legal immigrant to this country, for which I am eternally grateful and cognizant of my luck.
- elliekelly 7y ago
  > clearly the treatment of these individuals does not deter the countless daily immigrants who nevertheless choose- willingly- to take the risk Have you ever met a refugee? I suspect not. Every refugee I’ve ever met had no interest in leaving their country but felt they had to for the safety of their family. They’re well aware they’re breaking the law and the consequences they face if they get caught. But when you’re desperate even the possibility of your family being separated and caged and treated entirely inhumanely is a better prospect than sticking around a war-torn country or a dangerous political environment. Should we jail the starving person who steals a loaf of bread? The homeless person who “camps” without a permit? The old man with cancer and without health insurance who politely and half-heartedly attempts robs a bank in order to get access to health care[1]? Maybe that last one, sadly. But my point is that desperation can make a “criminal” out of anyone. Edit - Link to the unfortunately true story for anyone interested. [1] https://abcnews.go.com/Health/Wellness/nc-man-allegedly-robs-bank-health-care-jail/story?id=13887040 https://abcnews.go.com/Health/Wellness/nc-man-allegedly-robs...
  - staybythebay 7y ago
    Where and how do we draw the line, as a country? I can empathize with the struggle of refugees. Is the answer open borders? I would think not, but then, what is?
    - ianai 7y ago
      There’s an argument for open borders. Immigration grows markets directly. Especially when population growth is negative as it is. The push against immigration isn’t rooted in economic reasonings. Where I see a lack is in jobs and job growth. But jobs will definitely be created in response to the demand created by new people. Immigrants are even better than population growth through having babies because immigrants come from a distribution of ages. So demand growth isn’t concentrated at things babies want but closer to what all people want. Edit-this is particularly helpful to grow the social security revenue.
    - Nasrudith 7y ago
      I feel the only moral option for refugees has been enshrined in plain text of the treaties and is well established in precedent for the value of human life. It is akin to complaining about firefighter's hoses and people fleeing burning buildings tracking mud into their yards and concluding armed men should be set up around the perimeter to prevent mud from being tracked in. It is callousness and detachment without reason. Thus the only reasonable and humane response is utter harshness and ridicule to those who support and normalize it. Fuck your stupid borders you selfish stupid cunts. Don't you dare to complain about civility or harsh language when people's lives are in imminent danger is the height of moral obscenity.
      - elliekelly 7y ago
        You make a good point but your second paragraph really takes away from it.
        ianai 7y ago
        Does it though? The other side is mowing people down in cars at peaceful protests and killing immigrants extrajudicially.
arcticbull 7y ago
Uh, the children are. I'm not sure how a toddler had anything to do with winding up in a cage, and I'm pretty sure you don't either.
- User23 7y ago
  If a person takes his baby to rob a bank or commits any other arrestable offence and there is no other family available to take the child, then the child will end up in government custody. I concur that it is a sad and unfortunate result, but it's necessary supposing you don't want bringing a minor along to be a free pass for committing crimes. Since that policy creates incentives for endangering children, I strongly oppose it and anyone else who cares about the welfare of children should too. edit: I debated posting and then deleting this with myself quite a lot, but I'm going to leave it because I think it's important to consider more than just first order effects to protect child welfare, which is something we (I hope) all want.
  - arcticbull 7y ago
    I agree with everything you said, of course, that if a crime is committed and nobody is left to look after the child, the child becomes a ward of the state. They don't go to county lockup, they end up in the foster care system. It certainly doesn't provide a free pass to commit crimes in a "you can do literally anything you want so long as you've got a baby on you" haha. Either way the consequences are negative to the child and the child is also innocent. That is definitely sad and unfortunate. In the case of legitimate refugees seeking asylum, fleeing war-torn areas, the worst case outcome of ending up in a prison in the US may be a better outcome than near-certain death at home, which is why asylum seekers do so, and why the program exists in the first place. I think very few people in the US actually internalize and recognize this. It's also important to remember that some half of all illegal immigrants in the US are visa overstays, and assuming they did intend to leave when they originally spoke with a border guard, merely being in the US while out of status is not a criminal matter, it's a civil matter, like a traffic ticket. This was addressed in 2012 in Arizona v. USA. Congress has repeatedly refused to criminalize unlawful presence. It's a criminal matter if you lie to a border guard, if you enter without inspection, or try to re-enter after deportation. [1] [1] https://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2017/mar/15/florida-conference-catholic-bishops/being-united-states-unlawfully-crime/ https://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2017/mar/15/fl...

Your white trash family are trespassers.

I still fail to see how people fail to realize this point. Perhaps you can argue that the whole prison system needs to be reformed, but to make a special case for refugees from the south goes against fundamental laws that the US has. I feel like I’m in the minority for thinking that immigrants are welcome and great, so long as they’re legal. Dealing with illegal immigrating is something nobody wants to do. Nobody wakes up in the morning and hopes that we have a border crisis. However, laws need to be enforced, and clearly the treatment of these individuals does not deter the countless daily immigrants who nevertheless choose- willingly- to take the risk. I say all this as a legal immigrant to this country, for which I am eternally grateful and cognizant of my luck.

elliekelly 7y ago
> clearly the treatment of these individuals does not deter the countless daily immigrants who nevertheless choose- willingly- to take the risk Have you ever met a refugee? I suspect not. Every refugee I’ve ever met had no interest in leaving their country but felt they had to for the safety of their family. They’re well aware they’re breaking the law and the consequences they face if they get caught. But when you’re desperate even the possibility of your family being separated and caged and treated entirely inhumanely is a better prospect than sticking around a war-torn country or a dangerous political environment. Should we jail the starving person who steals a loaf of bread? The homeless person who “camps” without a permit? The old man with cancer and without health insurance who politely and half-heartedly attempts robs a bank in order to get access to health care[1]? Maybe that last one, sadly. But my point is that desperation can make a “criminal” out of anyone. Edit - Link to the unfortunately true story for anyone interested. [1] https://abcnews.go.com/Health/Wellness/nc-man-allegedly-robs-bank-health-care-jail/story?id=13887040 https://abcnews.go.com/Health/Wellness/nc-man-allegedly-robs...
- staybythebay 7y ago
  Where and how do we draw the line, as a country? I can empathize with the struggle of refugees. Is the answer open borders? I would think not, but then, what is?
  - ianai 7y ago
    There’s an argument for open borders. Immigration grows markets directly. Especially when population growth is negative as it is. The push against immigration isn’t rooted in economic reasonings. Where I see a lack is in jobs and job growth. But jobs will definitely be created in response to the demand created by new people. Immigrants are even better than population growth through having babies because immigrants come from a distribution of ages. So demand growth isn’t concentrated at things babies want but closer to what all people want. Edit-this is particularly helpful to grow the social security revenue.
  - Nasrudith 7y ago
    I feel the only moral option for refugees has been enshrined in plain text of the treaties and is well established in precedent for the value of human life. It is akin to complaining about firefighter's hoses and people fleeing burning buildings tracking mud into their yards and concluding armed men should be set up around the perimeter to prevent mud from being tracked in. It is callousness and detachment without reason. Thus the only reasonable and humane response is utter harshness and ridicule to those who support and normalize it. Fuck your stupid borders you selfish stupid cunts. Don't you dare to complain about civility or harsh language when people's lives are in imminent danger is the height of moral obscenity.
    - elliekelly 7y ago
      You make a good point but your second paragraph really takes away from it.
      - ianai 7y ago
        Does it though? The other side is mowing people down in cars at peaceful protests and killing immigrants extrajudicially.

arcticbull 7y ago

Uh, the children are. I'm not sure how a toddler had anything to do with winding up in a cage, and I'm pretty sure you don't either.

User23 7y ago
If a person takes his baby to rob a bank or commits any other arrestable offence and there is no other family available to take the child, then the child will end up in government custody. I concur that it is a sad and unfortunate result, but it's necessary supposing you don't want bringing a minor along to be a free pass for committing crimes. Since that policy creates incentives for endangering children, I strongly oppose it and anyone else who cares about the welfare of children should too. edit: I debated posting and then deleting this with myself quite a lot, but I'm going to leave it because I think it's important to consider more than just first order effects to protect child welfare, which is something we (I hope) all want.
- arcticbull 7y ago
  I agree with everything you said, of course, that if a crime is committed and nobody is left to look after the child, the child becomes a ward of the state. They don't go to county lockup, they end up in the foster care system. It certainly doesn't provide a free pass to commit crimes in a "you can do literally anything you want so long as you've got a baby on you" haha. Either way the consequences are negative to the child and the child is also innocent. That is definitely sad and unfortunate. In the case of legitimate refugees seeking asylum, fleeing war-torn areas, the worst case outcome of ending up in a prison in the US may be a better outcome than near-certain death at home, which is why asylum seekers do so, and why the program exists in the first place. I think very few people in the US actually internalize and recognize this. It's also important to remember that some half of all illegal immigrants in the US are visa overstays, and assuming they did intend to leave when they originally spoke with a border guard, merely being in the US while out of status is not a criminal matter, it's a civil matter, like a traffic ticket. This was addressed in 2012 in Arizona v. USA. Congress has repeatedly refused to criminalize unlawful presence. It's a criminal matter if you lie to a border guard, if you enter without inspection, or try to re-enter after deportation. [1] [1] https://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2017/mar/15/florida-conference-catholic-bishops/being-united-states-unlawfully-crime/ https://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2017/mar/15/fl...