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China today is a lot more free and open than when Nixon went to China in '72 to play them out against the Soviets. The real issue is that as China continues to

by chvid 7y ago

China today is a lot more free and open than when Nixon went to China in '72 to play them out against the Soviets. The real issue is that as China continues to grow economically, its military power grows as well and ultimately the US is no longer the dominant military power in the south china sea. Rhetorics about fair trade, democracy, freedom is just that, rhetorics; international politics is about raw power. Europe has no military interest in the south china sea. And China does not pose a military threat to us. Therefore we are fine with China's continuous growth as it benifits us economically.

keiferski 7y ago
The EU has put forth a picture of itself as a defender of human rights for both EU citizens and global residents. There are two main streams of human rights policy and action within the European Union. One is to protect the fundamental human rights for EU citizens, and the other is to promote human rights worldwide. https://europa.eu/european-union/topics/human-rights_en https://europa.eu/european-union/topics/human-rights_en I don't see how that is compatible with the frequent violations of human rights in China. As an above commenter said: it seems to boil down to money.
- chvid 7y ago
  Because it is bullshit. The current US administration is pushing issues now that it has ignored in the past. Eventhough in the broad view these issues are improving dramatically. Look at China today compared with how it was two or three decades ago and it will show massive improvements on living standard, environment, human rights, protection of minorities, intectual property rights, rule of law etc.
  - asabjorn 7y ago
    Environmental? China emit more CO2 than the EU and US combined https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/2018/07/01/china-emits-more-carbon-dioxide-than-the-u-s-and-eu-combined/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/20... Human rights? They have started putting Uighurs, Buddhists and Falun Gong into re-education camps https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong Two previous points also counter the rule of law point, which is admittedly a western concept.
    - chvid 7y ago
      China is 1.4 B people; why wouldn't it have higher co2 emissions than EU and USA? Anyways. We can chat about particular data points. But if you look at the broad picture over decades; you really have to be willfully blind to deny massive improvements that have happened.
      - asabjorn 7y ago
        The claim though was that it had improved on these and other points. And at least on these there seem to be a big and widely published degradation. Can always talk about data on the other points as well to see what they say.
  - perl4ever 7y ago
    I don't have a feel for what is BS in the usual rhetoric, but I saw something interesting today - among the measures reportedly being contemplated by the administration are the elimination of "waivers" for Chinese companies that are listed on US stock exchanges without meeting US accounting/auditing standards. Now, there may be nuance or whatever that I'm not aware of, but that actually sounds quite reasonable on the face of it. Why not require Chinese companies to meet US standards to be listed here? Maybe waivers were a type of corruption, even if well intended?
- pas 7y ago
  The EU consistently promotes these ideas in trade agreements (for example simply by requiring equal access to courts, administration, markets to anyone, respect for privacy and consumer rights, health safety and environmental protection). They are alas not backed on a lot of issues by other geopolitical entities.
asabjorn 7y ago
The country has since 1972 started “re-education” camps of the Muslim Uighurs [1], the confuscian Falun Gong [2] and the buddhist Tibetans amongst others [3]. This is not to mention their social credit system that shut anyone voicing dissent as well as their family from taking public transit, transacting, starting businesses and many other things [4]. Moreover, they are allegedly forcibly extracting organs for donation from people in re-education camps and prisons [5]. If true that is just evil. How can a country that oppress people they didn’t in 1972 and moreover do so more effectively be freer? [1] https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/09/25/world/asia/china-xinjiang-muslim-camps.amp.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/09/25/worl... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong [3] https://www.voanews.com/south-central-asia/tibetan-re-education-camp-journal-tells-chinas-tactics-now-used-uighurs https://www.voanews.com/south-central-asia/tibetan-re-educat... [4] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System [5] https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nationalreview.com/news/china-accused-of-harvesting-organs-of-uighurs-falun-gong-religious-group/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nationalreview.com/news/chi...
- benjaminbrodie2 7y ago
  Wow, you cited so many sources to support your views. Am impress
  - dang 7y ago
    Hey, could you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and follow the rules when posting here?
- bigpumpkin 7y ago
  "How can a country that oppress people they didn’t in 1972 and moreover do so more effectively be freer?" Cultural Revolution [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution
- dang 7y ago
pas 7y ago
It's not more free, less deadly though. Back then there was Mao Zedong Thought now we have Xi Jinping Though.

by chvid 7y ago

keiferski 7y ago

The EU has put forth a picture of itself as a defender of human rights for both EU citizens and global residents. There are two main streams of human rights policy and action within the European Union. One is to protect the fundamental human rights for EU citizens, and the other is to promote human rights worldwide. https://europa.eu/european-union/topics/human-rights_en https://europa.eu/european-union/topics/human-rights_en I don't see how that is compatible with the frequent violations of human rights in China. As an above commenter said: it seems to boil down to money.

chvid 7y ago
Because it is bullshit. The current US administration is pushing issues now that it has ignored in the past. Eventhough in the broad view these issues are improving dramatically. Look at China today compared with how it was two or three decades ago and it will show massive improvements on living standard, environment, human rights, protection of minorities, intectual property rights, rule of law etc.
- asabjorn 7y ago
  Environmental? China emit more CO2 than the EU and US combined https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/2018/07/01/china-emits-more-carbon-dioxide-than-the-u-s-and-eu-combined/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/20... Human rights? They have started putting Uighurs, Buddhists and Falun Gong into re-education camps https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong Two previous points also counter the rule of law point, which is admittedly a western concept.
  - chvid 7y ago
    China is 1.4 B people; why wouldn't it have higher co2 emissions than EU and USA? Anyways. We can chat about particular data points. But if you look at the broad picture over decades; you really have to be willfully blind to deny massive improvements that have happened.
    - asabjorn 7y ago
      The claim though was that it had improved on these and other points. And at least on these there seem to be a big and widely published degradation. Can always talk about data on the other points as well to see what they say.
- perl4ever 7y ago
  I don't have a feel for what is BS in the usual rhetoric, but I saw something interesting today - among the measures reportedly being contemplated by the administration are the elimination of "waivers" for Chinese companies that are listed on US stock exchanges without meeting US accounting/auditing standards. Now, there may be nuance or whatever that I'm not aware of, but that actually sounds quite reasonable on the face of it. Why not require Chinese companies to meet US standards to be listed here? Maybe waivers were a type of corruption, even if well intended?
pas 7y ago
The EU consistently promotes these ideas in trade agreements (for example simply by requiring equal access to courts, administration, markets to anyone, respect for privacy and consumer rights, health safety and environmental protection). They are alas not backed on a lot of issues by other geopolitical entities.

asabjorn 7y ago

The country has since 1972 started “re-education” camps of the Muslim Uighurs [1], the confuscian Falun Gong [2] and the buddhist Tibetans amongst others [3]. This is not to mention their social credit system that shut anyone voicing dissent as well as their family from taking public transit, transacting, starting businesses and many other things [4]. Moreover, they are allegedly forcibly extracting organs for donation from people in re-education camps and prisons [5]. If true that is just evil. How can a country that oppress people they didn’t in 1972 and moreover do so more effectively be freer? [1] https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/09/25/world/asia/china-xinjiang-muslim-camps.amp.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/09/25/worl... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong [3] https://www.voanews.com/south-central-asia/tibetan-re-education-camp-journal-tells-chinas-tactics-now-used-uighurs https://www.voanews.com/south-central-asia/tibetan-re-educat... [4] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System [5] https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nationalreview.com/news/china-accused-of-harvesting-organs-of-uighurs-falun-gong-religious-group/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nationalreview.com/news/chi...

benjaminbrodie2 7y ago
Wow, you cited so many sources to support your views. Am impress
- dang 7y ago
  Hey, could you please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and follow the rules when posting here?
bigpumpkin 7y ago
"How can a country that oppress people they didn’t in 1972 and moreover do so more effectively be freer?" Cultural Revolution [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_Revolution
dang 7y ago

pas 7y ago

It's not more free, less deadly though. Back then there was Mao Zedong Thought now we have Xi Jinping Though.