4 ms·

So what's the message, the EU is only interested in combating oppression when there's no money on the table?

by ng12 7y ago

greatpatton 7y ago
Yeah a little bit like the US, supporting Saudi Arabia whatever they do.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
efdee 7y ago
Are we pretending that any of this has to do with combatting oppression?
- pas 7y ago
  So.. just to be clear. Are you aware of the consequences of economic inequality? You know, the greatly inequal opportunities, the drastic bargaining power difference, etc. Do you think China is not going to exploit its economic power to achieve political goals? Are you aware of China's political goals? Do you agree with them? Just to name a few: censorship, take Taiwan, suppression of self-determination of minorities, gaining more territory in the East China Sea (island building) from its neighbors.
input_sh 7y ago
Counter-question: How exactly is the US combating oppression in China? Apart from ruining your own relationship with your 3rd biggest trade partner, that is.
- asabjorn 7y ago
  If China abide by WTO rules, environmental protections required by developed countries and had to abide by basic human rights for religious groups the Muslim Uighur, Tibetan Buddhists, Confucian Falun Gong and other groups would be freer [1,2,3,4]. Abiding by these rules would also make it hard to make their social credit system effective in stopping anyone that themselves or with a family member that voice dissent from taking public transit, transacting, getting a job etc [5] All great gains for the Chinese people. [1] https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/09/25/world/asia/china-xinjiang-muslim-camps.amp.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/09/25/worl... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong [3] https://www.voanews.com/south-central-asia/tibetan-re-education-camp-journal-tells-chinas-tactics-now-used-uighurs https://www.voanews.com/south-central-asia/tibetan-re-educat... [4] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
chvid 7y ago
China today is a lot more free and open than when Nixon went to China in '72 to play them out against the Soviets. The real issue is that as China continues to grow economically, its military power grows as well and ultimately the US is no longer the dominant military power in the south china sea. Rhetorics about fair trade, democracy, freedom is just that, rhetorics; international politics is about raw power. Europe has no military interest in the south china sea. And China does not pose a military threat to us. Therefore we are fine with China's continuous growth as it benifits us economically.
- keiferski 7y ago
  The EU has put forth a picture of itself as a defender of human rights for both EU citizens and global residents. There are two main streams of human rights policy and action within the European Union. One is to protect the fundamental human rights for EU citizens, and the other is to promote human rights worldwide. https://europa.eu/european-union/topics/human-rights_en https://europa.eu/european-union/topics/human-rights_en I don't see how that is compatible with the frequent violations of human rights in China. As an above commenter said: it seems to boil down to money.
  - chvid 7y ago
    Because it is bullshit. The current US administration is pushing issues now that it has ignored in the past. Eventhough in the broad view these issues are improving dramatically. Look at China today compared with how it was two or three decades ago and it will show massive improvements on living standard, environment, human rights, protection of minorities, intectual property rights, rule of law etc.
    - asabjorn 7y ago
      Environmental? China emit more CO2 than the EU and US combined https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/2018/07/01/china-emits-more-carbon-dioxide-than-the-u-s-and-eu-combined/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/20... Human rights? They have started putting Uighurs, Buddhists and Falun Gong into re-education camps https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong Two previous points also counter the rule of law point, which is admittedly a western concept.

So what's the message, the EU is only interested in combating oppression when there's no money on the table?

by ng12 7y ago

So what's the message, the EU is only interested in combating oppression when there's no money on the table?

greatpatton 7y ago

Yeah a little bit like the US, supporting Saudi Arabia whatever they do.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

efdee 7y ago

Are we pretending that any of this has to do with combatting oppression?

pas 7y ago
So.. just to be clear. Are you aware of the consequences of economic inequality? You know, the greatly inequal opportunities, the drastic bargaining power difference, etc. Do you think China is not going to exploit its economic power to achieve political goals? Are you aware of China's political goals? Do you agree with them? Just to name a few: censorship, take Taiwan, suppression of self-determination of minorities, gaining more territory in the East China Sea (island building) from its neighbors.

input_sh 7y ago

Counter-question: How exactly is the US combating oppression in China? Apart from ruining your own relationship with your 3rd biggest trade partner, that is.

asabjorn 7y ago
If China abide by WTO rules, environmental protections required by developed countries and had to abide by basic human rights for religious groups the Muslim Uighur, Tibetan Buddhists, Confucian Falun Gong and other groups would be freer [1,2,3,4]. Abiding by these rules would also make it hard to make their social credit system effective in stopping anyone that themselves or with a family member that voice dissent from taking public transit, transacting, getting a job etc [5] All great gains for the Chinese people. [1] https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/09/25/world/asia/china-xinjiang-muslim-camps.amp.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2019/09/25/worl... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong [3] https://www.voanews.com/south-central-asia/tibetan-re-education-camp-journal-tells-chinas-tactics-now-used-uighurs https://www.voanews.com/south-central-asia/tibetan-re-educat... [4] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_Credit_System

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

chvid 7y ago

China today is a lot more free and open than when Nixon went to China in '72 to play them out against the Soviets. The real issue is that as China continues to grow economically, its military power grows as well and ultimately the US is no longer the dominant military power in the south china sea. Rhetorics about fair trade, democracy, freedom is just that, rhetorics; international politics is about raw power. Europe has no military interest in the south china sea. And China does not pose a military threat to us. Therefore we are fine with China's continuous growth as it benifits us economically.

keiferski 7y ago
The EU has put forth a picture of itself as a defender of human rights for both EU citizens and global residents. There are two main streams of human rights policy and action within the European Union. One is to protect the fundamental human rights for EU citizens, and the other is to promote human rights worldwide. https://europa.eu/european-union/topics/human-rights_en https://europa.eu/european-union/topics/human-rights_en I don't see how that is compatible with the frequent violations of human rights in China. As an above commenter said: it seems to boil down to money.
- chvid 7y ago
  Because it is bullshit. The current US administration is pushing issues now that it has ignored in the past. Eventhough in the broad view these issues are improving dramatically. Look at China today compared with how it was two or three decades ago and it will show massive improvements on living standard, environment, human rights, protection of minorities, intectual property rights, rule of law etc.
  - asabjorn 7y ago
    Environmental? China emit more CO2 than the EU and US combined https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/2018/07/01/china-emits-more-carbon-dioxide-than-the-u-s-and-eu-combined/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/20... Human rights? They have started putting Uighurs, Buddhists and Falun Gong into re-education camps https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong Two previous points also counter the rule of law point, which is admittedly a western concept.