5 ms·

> The growing confrontation between the West and China seems to me to boil down to a philosophical problem It is not West VS China, it is mainly US VS China. E

> The growing confrontation between the West and China seems to me to boil down to a philosophical problem It is not West VS China, it is mainly US VS China. EU and other Asian developed economies might disdain China ideologically, but I don't think they have the appetite to break the status quo this eagerly. And it is nothing philosophical about it. It is geopolitical, and it is human nature. What you are saying are just intellectual seasoning, it may be necessary to intrigue the audience, but not for action. China is a new world power that competes with US both militarily and economically. Post WWII, US had fought with Soviet/Japan on those fronts separately, but China looks like a combination of both, makes it even more threatening and hard to tolerate.

factsaresacred 7y ago
> but I don't think they have the appetite to break the status quo this eagerly. Mainly they don't have the strength to break the status quo. Plus they don't want to jeopardise access to such a large market. It's a Faustian bargain they're beginning to regret. China is going to rise, this cannot and should not be prevented. But allowing them to rise at your own country's expense is folly. America gets this.
- xxxpupugo 7y ago
  Also US can weather itself the best if the status quo is broken, because it is currently on top. Other countries won't be so lucky. Trump's actions feel dramatic, but mainly on the magnitude and fast aggression. Something is due to happen and the world needs to adapt to that new normal.
  - thawaway1837 7y ago
    Trumps actions seem dramatic because they are largely incoherent with no end goal in mind and based on his personal feelings. The US would have made far more progress against China if it had remained in the TPP.
- simion314 7y ago
  So you change the rules in the middle of the game so you don't lose, sounds right if you are the arbiter too
  - leereeves 7y ago
    China never obeyed the rules, so the rest of the world has a choice: continue to play by the old rules at a disadvantage to a cheating China, accept the new rules China has been playing by, or isolate China until they start playing by the old rules.
    - rat9988 7y ago
      Which rules didn't china obey?
      - leereeves 7y ago
        Broadly speaking (for a detailed list see the US Trade Representative's report[1]) they failed to allow access to their markets or respect the rights of foreign companies. They've shown that a nationalist nation can exploit the globalist system to its own profit, raising doubts about globalism itself and leading to the resurgence of nationalism. 1: https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files/2018-USTR-Report-to-Congress-on-China%27s-WTO-Compliance.pdf https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files/2018-USTR-Report-to-Con...
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - RavlaAlvar 7y ago
        Promise they made when joining WTO
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
    - 7y ago
- jacquesm 7y ago
  It's far simpler than that. In order to look good domestically Trump needs a foe, and China conveniently provides that foe. They're a credible threat, they are not his Russian buddies and the US is to a large extent dependent on them. On top of that I suspect that when the last stone is overturned we will find a bunch of ways in which the US president and his cronies profited from the wild gyrations of the stock market as a result of the trade war.
  - narag 7y ago
    No matter who's in charge in each moment, the West should try to convince China that it must transition to a political system like ours if they want to keep dealing with us. Allowing China to maintain its tyrannic regime is extremely dangerous for everybody in the long run. The change doesn't need to be abrupt and it's possible to make some assurances for people currently in power. Not that it worked so well with Russia, I know.
    - jacquesm 7y ago
      The only way such change can be enforced without a war is from inside.
      - filoleg 7y ago
        I mean, isn’t that exactly the whole point of sanctions, to make people on the inside to feel the effects and do something about it from within?
        jacquesm 7y ago
        That's the theory. The practice is the rulers will use the sanctions to prove to their people that the outside world is mean and evil and their only hope lies in their dear leaders.
      - narag 7y ago
        "Enforced" is not the word I was looking for. More like showing the ruling class that it's in their own interest to gradually apply some changes. There are many obstacles for such a strategy. But even if there isn't a clear path, there needs to be some factors in place for somebody inside to invent that path. If nothing is ever done, nothing will change.
tomComb 7y ago
The other Asian countries were quite willing and ready to join with the US in action against China, eg. the TPP, but Trump seemed to have no interest in enlisting allies in this battle. Imagine how much faster this trade war would be over if all of China's top trading partners were involved rather than just the US.
primroot 7y ago
The so-called free market game is naturally rigged in favor of those who have more access to capital. And this includes capital of restricted intellectual property, however free one thinks restricting that capital is. However, even with the advantage of capital, a rich country like the US can find reasons, such as national security, to go against the rules. Agricultural subsidies and the military industrial complex go against the free market. Furthermore the US has a history of close relationships with countries which are in theory its philosophical opposite (Romania under Ceausescu, Saudi Arabia, and more recently Myanmar). Philosophical conflict is just an intellectually weak way of making a geopolitical conflict seem less cynical.
- IllogicalLogic 7y ago
  It will be quite funny if the US inadvertently makes the traditional market system obsolete by becoming too "sanction happy". Kind of like how they triggered a de-dollarization push... China already has a crypto Yuan, there is no reason they can't use a Binance style exchange for frictionless worldwide direct investment in their companies. China: You want to boycott investing in our companies? We'll route around your whole financial system and help make it obsolete. See what happens to the US economy when banks can no longer collect 20% fees on a growing percentage of the world population's transactions.

factsaresacred 7y ago

> but I don't think they have the appetite to break the status quo this eagerly. Mainly they don't have the strength to break the status quo. Plus they don't want to jeopardise access to such a large market. It's a Faustian bargain they're beginning to regret. China is going to rise, this cannot and should not be prevented. But allowing them to rise at your own country's expense is folly. America gets this.

xxxpupugo 7y ago
Also US can weather itself the best if the status quo is broken, because it is currently on top. Other countries won't be so lucky. Trump's actions feel dramatic, but mainly on the magnitude and fast aggression. Something is due to happen and the world needs to adapt to that new normal.
- thawaway1837 7y ago
  Trumps actions seem dramatic because they are largely incoherent with no end goal in mind and based on his personal feelings. The US would have made far more progress against China if it had remained in the TPP.
simion314 7y ago
So you change the rules in the middle of the game so you don't lose, sounds right if you are the arbiter too
- leereeves 7y ago
  China never obeyed the rules, so the rest of the world has a choice: continue to play by the old rules at a disadvantage to a cheating China, accept the new rules China has been playing by, or isolate China until they start playing by the old rules.
  - rat9988 7y ago
    Which rules didn't china obey?
    - leereeves 7y ago
      Broadly speaking (for a detailed list see the US Trade Representative's report[1]) they failed to allow access to their markets or respect the rights of foreign companies. They've shown that a nationalist nation can exploit the globalist system to its own profit, raising doubts about globalism itself and leading to the resurgence of nationalism. 1: https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files/2018-USTR-Report-to-Congress-on-China%27s-WTO-Compliance.pdf https://ustr.gov/sites/default/files/2018-USTR-Report-to-Con...
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
    - RavlaAlvar 7y ago
      Promise they made when joining WTO
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
  - 7y ago
jacquesm 7y ago
It's far simpler than that. In order to look good domestically Trump needs a foe, and China conveniently provides that foe. They're a credible threat, they are not his Russian buddies and the US is to a large extent dependent on them. On top of that I suspect that when the last stone is overturned we will find a bunch of ways in which the US president and his cronies profited from the wild gyrations of the stock market as a result of the trade war.
- narag 7y ago
  No matter who's in charge in each moment, the West should try to convince China that it must transition to a political system like ours if they want to keep dealing with us. Allowing China to maintain its tyrannic regime is extremely dangerous for everybody in the long run. The change doesn't need to be abrupt and it's possible to make some assurances for people currently in power. Not that it worked so well with Russia, I know.
  - jacquesm 7y ago
    The only way such change can be enforced without a war is from inside.
    - filoleg 7y ago
      I mean, isn’t that exactly the whole point of sanctions, to make people on the inside to feel the effects and do something about it from within?
      - jacquesm 7y ago
        That's the theory. The practice is the rulers will use the sanctions to prove to their people that the outside world is mean and evil and their only hope lies in their dear leaders.
    - narag 7y ago
      "Enforced" is not the word I was looking for. More like showing the ruling class that it's in their own interest to gradually apply some changes. There are many obstacles for such a strategy. But even if there isn't a clear path, there needs to be some factors in place for somebody inside to invent that path. If nothing is ever done, nothing will change.

tomComb 7y ago

The other Asian countries were quite willing and ready to join with the US in action against China, eg. the TPP, but Trump seemed to have no interest in enlisting allies in this battle. Imagine how much faster this trade war would be over if all of China's top trading partners were involved rather than just the US.

primroot 7y ago

The so-called free market game is naturally rigged in favor of those who have more access to capital. And this includes capital of restricted intellectual property, however free one thinks restricting that capital is. However, even with the advantage of capital, a rich country like the US can find reasons, such as national security, to go against the rules. Agricultural subsidies and the military industrial complex go against the free market. Furthermore the US has a history of close relationships with countries which are in theory its philosophical opposite (Romania under Ceausescu, Saudi Arabia, and more recently Myanmar). Philosophical conflict is just an intellectually weak way of making a geopolitical conflict seem less cynical.

IllogicalLogic 7y ago
It will be quite funny if the US inadvertently makes the traditional market system obsolete by becoming too "sanction happy". Kind of like how they triggered a de-dollarization push... China already has a crypto Yuan, there is no reason they can't use a Binance style exchange for frictionless worldwide direct investment in their companies. China: You want to boycott investing in our companies? We'll route around your whole financial system and help make it obsolete. See what happens to the US economy when banks can no longer collect 20% fees on a growing percentage of the world population's transactions.