4 ms·

Legalising it can also have unintended side effects. When prostitution is legalised, the demand often outstrips the supply, leading to an increase in human tra

by dx87 7y ago

Legalising it can also have unintended side effects. When prostitution is legalised, the demand often outstrips the supply, leading to an increase in human trafficking. https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1986065 https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1986065

roenxi 7y ago
Aha, I've seen that study on Hacker News before and I wrote a variant of the following observation: A charitable read of that paper, particularly p. 25, would suggest that trafficking dropped from 19,740 cases to 12,350 cases when prostitution was liberalised. I've done enough statistics to say that I don't think the paper conclusively shows evidence of a problem; particularly given how hard it must be to gather data on illegal things. Need more rigour to be used for this sort of discussion although it does show that there is a risk to be considered.
henrikschroder 7y ago
I'm generally in the liberal camp on this, and that legalization/decriminalization is the way to go, and that you have to listen to actual sex workers and ask them what they want. But this argument is the strongest I've seen for the opposing view. It basically says that legalization/decriminalization does make things better for existing sex workers, but since it increases trafficking, the whole thing is net negative, since a lot of people are now made to suffer to supply this new market. The best defense I have against that is that then you haven't enforced the legal landscape properly. It should be possible for local police to protect legal sex workers and treat them with dignity and respect, and crack down hard on trafficking. But I also realize how naive that makes me sound.
- detcader 7y ago
  Can we really just outright claim that all sex workers think the same way? Does this work for any other group I want? Or could it be severely infantilizing? And it's just not true: https://sarahditum.com/2014/02/24/who-do-you-listen-to/ https://sarahditum.com/2014/02/24/who-do-you-listen-to/
  - rndgermandude 7y ago
    Nobody here claimed that all sex workers think the same.
    - detcader 7y ago
      > you have to listen to actual sex workers and ask them what they want. This is what was I was responding to. The article I linked talks more on this sentiment, which generally ends up doing the same as Amazon warehouse workers chiming in on Twitter about how much they love their jobs: defending exploitation by appealing to the convenient ideologies of individuals.
      - rndgermandude 7y ago
        >Can we really just outright claim that all sex workers think the same way? And this is what I responded to. Also a) implying that prostitution is exploitation per se and b) implying every sex worker who said something positive about their work is a somehow rewarded astroturf shill is at the very least problematic. There are happy sex workers, there are unhappy sex workers (who still do it with the same level of voluntary participation as a "data entry specialist" in some cubicle or a worker gutting fish in a factory do their jobs; to make ends meet) and there are exploited/coerced/forced sex workers. The latter is a problem and a big one, and there were and are many proposed solutions to tackle it, and nobody found a really well working one yet, but putting those victims in a spot where they themselves are criminals is something that I would think cannot be helpful.
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
  - henrikschroder 7y ago
    The article does a pretty good job of showing examples of the "rescue industry", and how people who claim to be working in the interest of all sex workers simply aren't. Many are in it for their own ego or morals or posturing or money. The article also provided examples of people helping people get out of sex work, and actually being good at it. And the article also talks about the very thing you're protesting, there are two big narratives in the debate: "The happy hooker is a myth!" and "Sex workers who speak out are empowered feminist icons!" Both those narratives are extremes, and the article points out that reality is a lot more bland and boring and grey than that. The author talks about instances where a porn shoot was a great experience, but that mostly it was a boring shit job. Of course there are sex workers who hate their job and want to get out, but can't for numerous reasons, and need help getting out. Of course there are sex workers who hate their job, but would rather keep it, than take another shit job. Of course there are sex workers who occasionally hate their job, and occasionally love their job. Of course there are sex workers who like their job and would never want any other job. Of course there are sex workers who do it to finance a drug addiction. Of course there are sex workers who do it to finance their university education. Of course there are sex workers who have been abused and traumatized and hurt and beaten and killed in their work. Of course there are sex workers who have never experienced abuse in their work. And when I say "listen to actual sex workers", this is what I mean you have to listen to. All the good, and all the bad. All the different experiences that different people have. You can't just listen to all the bad, and immediately want to crack down and forbid it and try to stamp it out "for their own good", and assume it will magically disappear. You can't just listen to all the good, and immediately want to decriminalize it and assume it will all work out magically in the end either.
dcolkitt 7y ago
> When prostitution is legalised, the demand often outstrips the supply, leading to an increase in human trafficking. This line of reasoning makes very little sense to me. Let's just consider another profession. It's pretty undeniable the demand for skilled software engineers currently outstrips the supply. Especially for certain in-demand specialists. Yet we don't see machine learning PhDs being kidnapped and enslaved to work in a dank basement tuning Netflix's recommendation algorithm for hours on end with Reed Hastings and his goons threatening to kill their families. The simpler solution is for Netflix to just pay enough money to attract qualified people for the job. Every single other market in the world has a simple mechanism to deal with the scenario where demand outstrips supply. And that is simply to let prices rises to the point where the two reach equilibrium. There's absolutely zero reason why the market for prostitution should be any different. To the extent that it isn't it's only because law enforcement either is incapable of or refuses to investigate the complaints of crimes committed against sex workers.
- Mathnerd314 7y ago
  There are some really shady things going on with H1B's; maybe kidnapping isn't the right term, but the choice is between working pretty terrible conditions and getting deported. The simple supply/demand argument you see in economics class works in very few cases that feature in internet debates. It works well on eBay when you're selling a used iPhone, but not on labor, healthcare, or housing as those markets are all heavily regulated in comparison.

by dx87 7y ago

roenxi 7y ago

Aha, I've seen that study on Hacker News before and I wrote a variant of the following observation: A charitable read of that paper, particularly p. 25, would suggest that trafficking dropped from 19,740 cases to 12,350 cases when prostitution was liberalised. I've done enough statistics to say that I don't think the paper conclusively shows evidence of a problem; particularly given how hard it must be to gather data on illegal things. Need more rigour to be used for this sort of discussion although it does show that there is a risk to be considered.

henrikschroder 7y ago

I'm generally in the liberal camp on this, and that legalization/decriminalization is the way to go, and that you have to listen to actual sex workers and ask them what they want. But this argument is the strongest I've seen for the opposing view. It basically says that legalization/decriminalization does make things better for existing sex workers, but since it increases trafficking, the whole thing is net negative, since a lot of people are now made to suffer to supply this new market. The best defense I have against that is that then you haven't enforced the legal landscape properly. It should be possible for local police to protect legal sex workers and treat them with dignity and respect, and crack down hard on trafficking. But I also realize how naive that makes me sound.

detcader 7y ago
Can we really just outright claim that all sex workers think the same way? Does this work for any other group I want? Or could it be severely infantilizing? And it's just not true: https://sarahditum.com/2014/02/24/who-do-you-listen-to/ https://sarahditum.com/2014/02/24/who-do-you-listen-to/
- rndgermandude 7y ago
  Nobody here claimed that all sex workers think the same.
  - detcader 7y ago
    > you have to listen to actual sex workers and ask them what they want. This is what was I was responding to. The article I linked talks more on this sentiment, which generally ends up doing the same as Amazon warehouse workers chiming in on Twitter about how much they love their jobs: defending exploitation by appealing to the convenient ideologies of individuals.
    - rndgermandude 7y ago
      >Can we really just outright claim that all sex workers think the same way? And this is what I responded to. Also a) implying that prostitution is exploitation per se and b) implying every sex worker who said something positive about their work is a somehow rewarded astroturf shill is at the very least problematic. There are happy sex workers, there are unhappy sex workers (who still do it with the same level of voluntary participation as a "data entry specialist" in some cubicle or a worker gutting fish in a factory do their jobs; to make ends meet) and there are exploited/coerced/forced sex workers. The latter is a problem and a big one, and there were and are many proposed solutions to tackle it, and nobody found a really well working one yet, but putting those victims in a spot where they themselves are criminals is something that I would think cannot be helpful.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
- henrikschroder 7y ago
  The article does a pretty good job of showing examples of the "rescue industry", and how people who claim to be working in the interest of all sex workers simply aren't. Many are in it for their own ego or morals or posturing or money. The article also provided examples of people helping people get out of sex work, and actually being good at it. And the article also talks about the very thing you're protesting, there are two big narratives in the debate: "The happy hooker is a myth!" and "Sex workers who speak out are empowered feminist icons!" Both those narratives are extremes, and the article points out that reality is a lot more bland and boring and grey than that. The author talks about instances where a porn shoot was a great experience, but that mostly it was a boring shit job. Of course there are sex workers who hate their job and want to get out, but can't for numerous reasons, and need help getting out. Of course there are sex workers who hate their job, but would rather keep it, than take another shit job. Of course there are sex workers who occasionally hate their job, and occasionally love their job. Of course there are sex workers who like their job and would never want any other job. Of course there are sex workers who do it to finance a drug addiction. Of course there are sex workers who do it to finance their university education. Of course there are sex workers who have been abused and traumatized and hurt and beaten and killed in their work. Of course there are sex workers who have never experienced abuse in their work. And when I say "listen to actual sex workers", this is what I mean you have to listen to. All the good, and all the bad. All the different experiences that different people have. You can't just listen to all the bad, and immediately want to crack down and forbid it and try to stamp it out "for their own good", and assume it will magically disappear. You can't just listen to all the good, and immediately want to decriminalize it and assume it will all work out magically in the end either.

dcolkitt 7y ago

> When prostitution is legalised, the demand often outstrips the supply, leading to an increase in human trafficking. This line of reasoning makes very little sense to me. Let's just consider another profession. It's pretty undeniable the demand for skilled software engineers currently outstrips the supply. Especially for certain in-demand specialists. Yet we don't see machine learning PhDs being kidnapped and enslaved to work in a dank basement tuning Netflix's recommendation algorithm for hours on end with Reed Hastings and his goons threatening to kill their families. The simpler solution is for Netflix to just pay enough money to attract qualified people for the job. Every single other market in the world has a simple mechanism to deal with the scenario where demand outstrips supply. And that is simply to let prices rises to the point where the two reach equilibrium. There's absolutely zero reason why the market for prostitution should be any different. To the extent that it isn't it's only because law enforcement either is incapable of or refuses to investigate the complaints of crimes committed against sex workers.

Mathnerd314 7y ago
There are some really shady things going on with H1B's; maybe kidnapping isn't the right term, but the choice is between working pretty terrible conditions and getting deported. The simple supply/demand argument you see in economics class works in very few cases that feature in internet debates. It works well on eBay when you're selling a used iPhone, but not on labor, healthcare, or housing as those markets are all heavily regulated in comparison.