4 ms·

Good. Free market doesn't work when refusing to pay for the product costs you in health or even life.

privateSFacct 7y ago
Actually - this is an effort to bring the free market into the system. Ie, doctors have to tell you UP FRONT what they will charge you, and cannot just drop by your room while you are out and then bill you for the evaluation. You can then decide if the specialist out of network is worth it, or go in-network or to your medical / medicare provider and work with them. In particular (for those who don't know) California's law protects you ONLY if you go to an IN NETWORK facility. If you do, then if somehow an out of network doctor drops by or helps with the knock out gas or whatever, they can't then bill you for the "out of network" service. It turns out this was pretty common (my guess is some kind of kickback to the in-network facility to allow this). You can still be charged or over charged by any provider if you agree to be, and sometimes still even if you don't (ambulance ride to out of network)
- jniedrauer 7y ago
  Prices being known ahead of time is not an inherent property of a free market. Fair billing is not an inherent property of a free market.
  - ZhuanXia 7y ago
    The "free market" doesn't really exist. It is an ideal, and an ill defined one at best. What does exists are mechanisms. A law that forces prices to be visible is a mechanism that is likely to increase economic efficiency at little cost. In absence of a rent-seeking doctor's guild, it would not be needed, true, but it is certainly better than nothing.
  - 333c 7y ago
    In fact, full availability of information (including price and quality) is a key feature of a free market, at least as defined in my ECON 101 class.
  - nostrademons 7y ago
    It's generally called a "racket" rather than a "free market" in the absence of pricing information, free choice, and fair billing.
  - standardUser 7y ago
    Without accurate an available information, there is no free market. Just lots of betting. "I'm going to buy this great new car. I wonder if it will cost me $15k or $45k? Can't wait to find out!" Said no market participant ever.
    - colejohnson66 7y ago
      It’s more like: you get in a car accident and the mechanic forces you to get a new car. The only thing is: you won’t know the price of the car until you receive the dozens of bills for the different steps of manufacturing (one for the steel press factory, one for the leather factory, one for the aluminum factory, one for the person who put it together, one for the factory it was assembled in, etc.) You also can’t find the price of this new car online and the mechanic won’t (or sometimes can’t) tell you.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
deogeo 7y ago
And even less when the seller refuses to disclose ahead of time what you will be charged.
r00fus 7y ago
This is called inelastic demand.
yunesj 7y ago
> Free market doesn't work when refusing to pay for the product costs you in health or even life. The free market works great to provide food.
- duskwuff 7y ago
  Food is simple. Practically everyone understands what food is, knows where and when they can get it, and (usually) has plenty of choices of where to eat. All of these things are untrue of health care.
- munk-a 7y ago
  This amuses me as I'm familiar with the quality and price of hospital food - both sold to visitors and given to patients. The food given to patients is nearly always of a decent quality since making people sicker really doesn't help, but it usually isn't nutritionally great and it's always over priced - for visitors the food is even more overpriced and the production of it is usually farmed out to a random restaurant in the area that can cater for it so quality will vary wildly. And just you try to find some competition in terms of food suppliers while you're in a hospital - it's the cafeteria or nothing.
- pxeboot 7y ago
  If you are in the US, food is one of the most heavily subsidized items people typically buy.
- maximente 7y ago
  which "free market" is that? in the US the "free market" for food continually gets porked up "Ag bills", leaves food deserts in low income areas, subsidizes complete and utter garbage used to feed livestock, and pays farmers directly even though it's not efficient by any means. despite all of this you almost certainly want this to continue because in the event the ol' "free market" decides that it's not worth, say, maintaining food infrastructure due to a few good years, you'll probably die in a famine or the chaos that comes as a result of it.
duskwuff 7y ago
Practically everything about the health care system makes it the opposite of a free market. Patients often lack the domain knowledge to know what care they need, or what it should cost; even when they do, they often have few choices of where to get it (due to geography and/or insurance restrictions), or no choice at all (if they're receiving emergency care, or if their care requirements change while they are hospitalized). All of this adds up to a marketplace where "customers" are largely forced to pay whatever they are charged, and have very little choice in the matter.
- wisty 7y ago
  I think there is genuinely a libertarian argument that healthcare is partly expensive due to government over-regulation. A lot of what you said also applies to car mechanics. But they are less regulated, and there's unregulated alternatives, which makes things cheaper and more competitive. But since the US does have a high amount of government interference (apparently it's a big deal when a child dies, while a dodgy mechanic is something we just deal with), maybe it's best to just create a public system rather than a highly compromised hybrid with most of the cons of both public and private systems (the US actually has a higher tax burden due to healthcare than Canada, since the people who get it free on Medicare and Medicaid end up costing a fortune - the private sector can be way smarter than the government at the subsidies and incentives game).
  - bart_spoon 7y ago
    Very little of what they said applies to auto mechanics, outside of consumers not having much domain knowledge.

Actually - this is an effort to bring the free market into the system. Ie, doctors have to tell you UP FRONT what they will charge you, and cannot just drop by your room while you are out and then bill you for the evaluation. You can then decide if the specialist out of network is worth it, or go in-network or to your medical / medicare provider and work with them. In particular (for those who don't know) California's law protects you ONLY if you go to an IN NETWORK facility. If you do, then if somehow an out of network doctor drops by or helps with the knock out gas or whatever, they can't then bill you for the "out of network" service. It turns out this was pretty common (my guess is some kind of kickback to the in-network facility to allow this). You can still be charged or over charged by any provider if you agree to be, and sometimes still even if you don't (ambulance ride to out of network)

jniedrauer 7y ago
Prices being known ahead of time is not an inherent property of a free market. Fair billing is not an inherent property of a free market.
- ZhuanXia 7y ago
  The "free market" doesn't really exist. It is an ideal, and an ill defined one at best. What does exists are mechanisms. A law that forces prices to be visible is a mechanism that is likely to increase economic efficiency at little cost. In absence of a rent-seeking doctor's guild, it would not be needed, true, but it is certainly better than nothing.
- 333c 7y ago
  In fact, full availability of information (including price and quality) is a key feature of a free market, at least as defined in my ECON 101 class.
- nostrademons 7y ago
  It's generally called a "racket" rather than a "free market" in the absence of pricing information, free choice, and fair billing.
- standardUser 7y ago
  Without accurate an available information, there is no free market. Just lots of betting. "I'm going to buy this great new car. I wonder if it will cost me $15k or $45k? Can't wait to find out!" Said no market participant ever.
  - colejohnson66 7y ago
    It’s more like: you get in a car accident and the mechanic forces you to get a new car. The only thing is: you won’t know the price of the car until you receive the dozens of bills for the different steps of manufacturing (one for the steel press factory, one for the leather factory, one for the aluminum factory, one for the person who put it together, one for the factory it was assembled in, etc.) You also can’t find the price of this new car online and the mechanic won’t (or sometimes can’t) tell you.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]

deogeo 7y ago

And even less when the seller refuses to disclose ahead of time what you will be charged.

r00fus 7y ago

This is called inelastic demand.

yunesj 7y ago

> Free market doesn't work when refusing to pay for the product costs you in health or even life. The free market works great to provide food.

duskwuff 7y ago
Food is simple. Practically everyone understands what food is, knows where and when they can get it, and (usually) has plenty of choices of where to eat. All of these things are untrue of health care.
munk-a 7y ago
This amuses me as I'm familiar with the quality and price of hospital food - both sold to visitors and given to patients. The food given to patients is nearly always of a decent quality since making people sicker really doesn't help, but it usually isn't nutritionally great and it's always over priced - for visitors the food is even more overpriced and the production of it is usually farmed out to a random restaurant in the area that can cater for it so quality will vary wildly. And just you try to find some competition in terms of food suppliers while you're in a hospital - it's the cafeteria or nothing.
pxeboot 7y ago
If you are in the US, food is one of the most heavily subsidized items people typically buy.
maximente 7y ago
which "free market" is that? in the US the "free market" for food continually gets porked up "Ag bills", leaves food deserts in low income areas, subsidizes complete and utter garbage used to feed livestock, and pays farmers directly even though it's not efficient by any means. despite all of this you almost certainly want this to continue because in the event the ol' "free market" decides that it's not worth, say, maintaining food infrastructure due to a few good years, you'll probably die in a famine or the chaos that comes as a result of it.

duskwuff 7y ago

Practically everything about the health care system makes it the opposite of a free market. Patients often lack the domain knowledge to know what care they need, or what it should cost; even when they do, they often have few choices of where to get it (due to geography and/or insurance restrictions), or no choice at all (if they're receiving emergency care, or if their care requirements change while they are hospitalized). All of this adds up to a marketplace where "customers" are largely forced to pay whatever they are charged, and have very little choice in the matter.

wisty 7y ago
I think there is genuinely a libertarian argument that healthcare is partly expensive due to government over-regulation. A lot of what you said also applies to car mechanics. But they are less regulated, and there's unregulated alternatives, which makes things cheaper and more competitive. But since the US does have a high amount of government interference (apparently it's a big deal when a child dies, while a dodgy mechanic is something we just deal with), maybe it's best to just create a public system rather than a highly compromised hybrid with most of the cons of both public and private systems (the US actually has a higher tax burden due to healthcare than Canada, since the people who get it free on Medicare and Medicaid end up costing a fortune - the private sector can be way smarter than the government at the subsidies and incentives game).
- bart_spoon 7y ago
  Very little of what they said applies to auto mechanics, outside of consumers not having much domain knowledge.