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I’m not sure this is only western society. Is there an indigenous culture that values male emotions without stigma? As I think about Asia and Africa, I’m dra

I’m not sure this is only western society. Is there an indigenous culture that values male emotions without stigma? As I think about Asia and Africa, I’m drawing a blank on this. But I’d be happy to be shown wrong.

SllX 7y ago
You can have emotionless warriors or you can have emotional pacifists. You might even have emotional warriors, but emotionless pacifists is a hard sell. If the State monopolizes violence to the point that we can’t hash things out with our fists, and there’s no room in our society to emotionally vent, then what’s left? It’s not like violence disappeared from society, it just takes different forms when suppressed.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- dang 7y ago
  There's a lot of room in our society to emotionally vent; it just happens in private relationships and on internet forums. The challenge is that the emotions are often uncontained, and uncontained emotion is closely related to violence, as you say.
  - edmundsauto 7y ago
    What's even more interesting (to me, at least) is that venting might not be helpful. "Does distraction or rumination work better to diffuse anger? Catharsis theory predicts that rumination works best, but empirical evidence is lacking." [0] http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bbushman/PSPB02.pdf http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bbushman/PSPB02.pdf
    - dang 7y ago
      It is an interesting question. I've personally found that most venting and catharsis leads to repetition and maybe even strengthens existing patterns. Contemporary work on trauma (Bessel van der Kolk, Peter Levine, Gabor Maté) regards catharsis as retraumatizing and works instead with "titration", i.e. re-experiencing and expressing just a little at a time. On the other hand, I've personally experienced a cathartic process that—as best as one can trace these things—brought real change, so there's no single answer about this.
  - jimkleiber 7y ago
    I agree about spaces to emotionally vent...goodness, the internet lets me vent about anything, at any time, with almost any audience of my choosing, through words, sounds, and video. On the second part, I would say that emotions are often unarticulated, which may be similar to what you're saying. For me, what I've been trying to practice is that when I start to feel angry, to say "I feel angry" instead of "what is wrong with you??" I've noticed in traffic that if someone cuts me off, I'll have a reflex to cuss out the guy or say something about him being an idiot, and then I'll pause and go, "I really just felt afraid that I would crash." I could tell story after story about how the emotion is not being clearly articulated, and that when it is, it can really realign the situation. But, to quote James Pennebaker, author of Opening Up (a book that I read and loved) and lots of work on journaling and emotions: "Verbally labeling an emotion is much like applying a digital technology (language) to an analog signal (emotion and the emotional experience)." --from https://c3po.media.mit.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/45/2016/01/PennebakerChung_FriedmanChapter.pdf https://c3po.media.mit.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/45/2016/..., an article I have not yet fully read. So, in conclusion, maybe my unarticulated is your uncontained analog signal :-D
    - dang 7y ago
      I'm not sure I understand the bit about digital technology, but this seems to me to be pure gold: "For me, what I've been trying to practice is that when I start to feel angry, to say "I feel angry" instead of "what is wrong with you??""
      - jimkleiber 7y ago
        :-) glad that part was helpful! Regarding the digital technology part, for me it's basically saying that we have this messy, organic, chemical mix of things happening within our bodies, and then we condense all of that into one word, e.g., "happy." What fascinates me about language, and frustrates me, and does many other things to me, is the fact that when I use the word "happy" it may be describing a different internal messiness than your word "happy," and yet, the more we have in common, the more I will often assume our definitions are the same. I can't tell you how many conflicts in which I've found myself from definitions that I assumed to be shared but were in fact different, e.g., "I'm ready to leave," lol.
- jimkleiber 7y ago
  I mean, sometimes I think about the days of yore when people could punch each other and the fight would resolve itself, and maybe that happened in the past and maybe I'm just thinking it happened like that. I think with physical violence, it can escalate. You punch me and "win" the fight, next time I come back with a few friends and the fight may get worse over time. And that's just assuming it's only punches. If knives or guns are involved, it can escalate really fast, and perpetuate unresolved for years, if not generations. And I agree with you that the violence is just taking other forms. One can't punch another, so instead, we shame that person, humiliate them, embarrass them in front of their friends and loved ones. I sometimes have fear of posting on public forums, saying something that will make someone angry, and then receiving an onslaught of comments ridiculing me and beyond. So while I think some conflict can resolve itself through merely putting on gloves and duking it out, I think more often than not conflict resolves itself much better through communicating in a nonviolent way.
  - josinalvo 7y ago
    That is the thing, though. Violence had social norms around it. It was not the case that you could escalate forever. I remember one message from a father to a son, for example, that said "never throw the first punch unless he is X inches taller than you". Of course, this might have been a tad to noble for the time, but still, there were norms.
peteretep 7y ago
I’ve been in Bali recently, and although it’s still a very patriarchal society, I’ve had a distinct sense that masculinity is more fluid than in — say — Thailand, which might feel like it should be similar. There are Balinese guys with flowers in their hair, and I’ve seen none of the aggression that occasionally raises its head in Thailand.
- klipt 7y ago
  That kind of disproves the "patriarchy causes male aggression" theory, doesn't it?
  - peteretep 7y ago
    Maybe? So? What point did you think I was trying to make?
jimkleiber 7y ago
When you say "male emotions," I feel a bit unsure which emotions you mean. Sadness? Anger? Confusion? Pride? I'm not sure if there is a culture, indigenous or not, that values the expression of all emotions, and if it does, not sure if the people in the culture walk the talk, so to say. I take it back, I think many religions seem to value the expression of most emotions, especially Buddhism, at least in theory, and yet I don't know how many people achieve that in practice. I keep trying and it really really challenges me lol.
- neltnerb 7y ago
  I mean, Tantra, or at least some takes on it, is training yourself to be receptive and open to your own emotions. To various extents in Taoist groups historically, presumably at least partially continuing. Being in touch with your own emotions is a pretty big aspect of a lot of martial arts, although I suppose not expressing them.
  - jimkleiber 7y ago
    Ah, cool, I'll check more into Tantra! With regards to martial arts, maybe it just depends on the definition of expressing them. To put them into words, maybe not so much. I remember taking a Krav Maga class and I saw the head trainer go from calm to intensely focused and powerful in a flash, and then back to calm after the exercise. So, for me, he was expressing the emotions physically, just not so much with his words. At the same time, in other self-defense trainings I've taken, I've seen more emphasis on how to express verbally, lending towards conflict de-escalation. But I would agree, overall, that most martial arts don't seem to highlight the verbal expression of emotions...but I hope to one day change that. I've been building a martial art/self-defense system that focuses more on responding to emotional attacks, as I believe I'm much more likely to be emotionally attacked than physically attacked.
    - neltnerb 7y ago
      That sounds interesting, and yes, I meant verbal expression. I'm a second degree black belt and I find it tricky to respond to emotional attacks, it'd be nice to practice techniques for not being angry for ten minutes after a car cuts me off in a crosswalk. It's not an emotional attack in the sense that attacks need to be intentional, but tools for recognizing the source of emotions and letting that tension release is a life skill that is not explicitly taught much. I definitely didn't learn it in karate, but I did learn it in meditation practices from other sources. Combining it all holistically would be interesting.
golemiprague 7y ago
Western society is also "indigenous", mainly to Europe and no, if anything the only society blubbering about emotions is the western society because it doesn't have to deal with too much adversity. It will all end when some hardship will come its way and we all give a bit less importance to feminist agendas.

SllX 7y ago

You can have emotionless warriors or you can have emotional pacifists. You might even have emotional warriors, but emotionless pacifists is a hard sell. If the State monopolizes violence to the point that we can’t hash things out with our fists, and there’s no room in our society to emotionally vent, then what’s left? It’s not like violence disappeared from society, it just takes different forms when suppressed.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
dang 7y ago
There's a lot of room in our society to emotionally vent; it just happens in private relationships and on internet forums. The challenge is that the emotions are often uncontained, and uncontained emotion is closely related to violence, as you say.
- edmundsauto 7y ago
  What's even more interesting (to me, at least) is that venting might not be helpful. "Does distraction or rumination work better to diffuse anger? Catharsis theory predicts that rumination works best, but empirical evidence is lacking." [0] http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bbushman/PSPB02.pdf http://www-personal.umich.edu/~bbushman/PSPB02.pdf
  - dang 7y ago
    It is an interesting question. I've personally found that most venting and catharsis leads to repetition and maybe even strengthens existing patterns. Contemporary work on trauma (Bessel van der Kolk, Peter Levine, Gabor Maté) regards catharsis as retraumatizing and works instead with "titration", i.e. re-experiencing and expressing just a little at a time. On the other hand, I've personally experienced a cathartic process that—as best as one can trace these things—brought real change, so there's no single answer about this.
- jimkleiber 7y ago
  I agree about spaces to emotionally vent...goodness, the internet lets me vent about anything, at any time, with almost any audience of my choosing, through words, sounds, and video. On the second part, I would say that emotions are often unarticulated, which may be similar to what you're saying. For me, what I've been trying to practice is that when I start to feel angry, to say "I feel angry" instead of "what is wrong with you??" I've noticed in traffic that if someone cuts me off, I'll have a reflex to cuss out the guy or say something about him being an idiot, and then I'll pause and go, "I really just felt afraid that I would crash." I could tell story after story about how the emotion is not being clearly articulated, and that when it is, it can really realign the situation. But, to quote James Pennebaker, author of Opening Up (a book that I read and loved) and lots of work on journaling and emotions: "Verbally labeling an emotion is much like applying a digital technology (language) to an analog signal (emotion and the emotional experience)." --from https://c3po.media.mit.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/45/2016/01/PennebakerChung_FriedmanChapter.pdf https://c3po.media.mit.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/45/2016/..., an article I have not yet fully read. So, in conclusion, maybe my unarticulated is your uncontained analog signal :-D
  - dang 7y ago
    I'm not sure I understand the bit about digital technology, but this seems to me to be pure gold: "For me, what I've been trying to practice is that when I start to feel angry, to say "I feel angry" instead of "what is wrong with you??""
    - jimkleiber 7y ago
      :-) glad that part was helpful! Regarding the digital technology part, for me it's basically saying that we have this messy, organic, chemical mix of things happening within our bodies, and then we condense all of that into one word, e.g., "happy." What fascinates me about language, and frustrates me, and does many other things to me, is the fact that when I use the word "happy" it may be describing a different internal messiness than your word "happy," and yet, the more we have in common, the more I will often assume our definitions are the same. I can't tell you how many conflicts in which I've found myself from definitions that I assumed to be shared but were in fact different, e.g., "I'm ready to leave," lol.
jimkleiber 7y ago
I mean, sometimes I think about the days of yore when people could punch each other and the fight would resolve itself, and maybe that happened in the past and maybe I'm just thinking it happened like that. I think with physical violence, it can escalate. You punch me and "win" the fight, next time I come back with a few friends and the fight may get worse over time. And that's just assuming it's only punches. If knives or guns are involved, it can escalate really fast, and perpetuate unresolved for years, if not generations. And I agree with you that the violence is just taking other forms. One can't punch another, so instead, we shame that person, humiliate them, embarrass them in front of their friends and loved ones. I sometimes have fear of posting on public forums, saying something that will make someone angry, and then receiving an onslaught of comments ridiculing me and beyond. So while I think some conflict can resolve itself through merely putting on gloves and duking it out, I think more often than not conflict resolves itself much better through communicating in a nonviolent way.
- josinalvo 7y ago
  That is the thing, though. Violence had social norms around it. It was not the case that you could escalate forever. I remember one message from a father to a son, for example, that said "never throw the first punch unless he is X inches taller than you". Of course, this might have been a tad to noble for the time, but still, there were norms.

peteretep 7y ago

I’ve been in Bali recently, and although it’s still a very patriarchal society, I’ve had a distinct sense that masculinity is more fluid than in — say — Thailand, which might feel like it should be similar. There are Balinese guys with flowers in their hair, and I’ve seen none of the aggression that occasionally raises its head in Thailand.

klipt 7y ago
That kind of disproves the "patriarchy causes male aggression" theory, doesn't it?
- peteretep 7y ago
  Maybe? So? What point did you think I was trying to make?

jimkleiber 7y ago

When you say "male emotions," I feel a bit unsure which emotions you mean. Sadness? Anger? Confusion? Pride? I'm not sure if there is a culture, indigenous or not, that values the expression of all emotions, and if it does, not sure if the people in the culture walk the talk, so to say. I take it back, I think many religions seem to value the expression of most emotions, especially Buddhism, at least in theory, and yet I don't know how many people achieve that in practice. I keep trying and it really really challenges me lol.

neltnerb 7y ago
I mean, Tantra, or at least some takes on it, is training yourself to be receptive and open to your own emotions. To various extents in Taoist groups historically, presumably at least partially continuing. Being in touch with your own emotions is a pretty big aspect of a lot of martial arts, although I suppose not expressing them.
- jimkleiber 7y ago
  Ah, cool, I'll check more into Tantra! With regards to martial arts, maybe it just depends on the definition of expressing them. To put them into words, maybe not so much. I remember taking a Krav Maga class and I saw the head trainer go from calm to intensely focused and powerful in a flash, and then back to calm after the exercise. So, for me, he was expressing the emotions physically, just not so much with his words. At the same time, in other self-defense trainings I've taken, I've seen more emphasis on how to express verbally, lending towards conflict de-escalation. But I would agree, overall, that most martial arts don't seem to highlight the verbal expression of emotions...but I hope to one day change that. I've been building a martial art/self-defense system that focuses more on responding to emotional attacks, as I believe I'm much more likely to be emotionally attacked than physically attacked.
  - neltnerb 7y ago
    That sounds interesting, and yes, I meant verbal expression. I'm a second degree black belt and I find it tricky to respond to emotional attacks, it'd be nice to practice techniques for not being angry for ten minutes after a car cuts me off in a crosswalk. It's not an emotional attack in the sense that attacks need to be intentional, but tools for recognizing the source of emotions and letting that tension release is a life skill that is not explicitly taught much. I definitely didn't learn it in karate, but I did learn it in meditation practices from other sources. Combining it all holistically would be interesting.

golemiprague 7y ago

Western society is also "indigenous", mainly to Europe and no, if anything the only society blubbering about emotions is the western society because it doesn't have to deal with too much adversity. It will all end when some hardship will come its way and we all give a bit less importance to feminist agendas.