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Fascinating! Did any later gen systems besides the Nintendo 64 use these chips? Would it be possible to use a similar configuration in Switch cartridges?

bitwize 7y ago
I think Switch carts use a form of flash memory, which precludes this sort of extra-flexible expansion. You could include a chip on the cart, but it wouldn't have much throughput to do things like real-time graphics transformation. As for compression, most consoles just do regular decompression with the open source image libraries in the system BIOS, or on-GPU texture decompression. It wouldn't surprise me if the sprites in a game like River City Girls, for instance, were just PNGs.
- monocasa 7y ago
  Small correction: the chips inside switch cartridges are mainly mask ROMs, not Flash.
- fl0wenol 7y ago
  The Switch is "just" an Nvidia Shield, albeit not running android. The carts are your standard mask ROM on a (proprietary) bus manufactured by Macronix and so would not be able to extend the functionality in a meaningful way. Texture decompression is handled using the hardware acceleration on the Tegra if being used to save VRAM, otherwise using standard libraries (like libpng, libjpeg, etc.) in the game software.
codesushi42 7y ago
32X was a similar concept, with the idea of packaging up and reusing enhancement chips in a base cartridge that would add 3D support to the Genesis. The Genesis VDP is still used in 32X games, usually to render the background while the 32X's VDP renders flat shaded polygons on top. The Saturn uses a similar architecture of using two VDPs, with one mainly dedicated to rendering the background.
- velox_io 7y ago
  I'm surprised this concept died out. Take the next-gen consoles, they're supporting games at 120fps/120hz. They could target 60fps (what the vast majority of users will use) and daisy-chain another console for the serious gamers who 'need' 120fps. This could be done through the HDMI cable (which supports ethernet in addition to video & sound), it could even be enhanced to support 8k. Yes, this is essentially SLI/ CrossFire, something that has been around for some time, and support would be described as patchy at best. I believe the main issue is that it's left to game developers to implement, rather than something abstracted away to the graphics drivers/ GPUs.
  - codesushi42 7y ago
    Hindsight is always 20/20. At the time, and even on paper, 32X did not sound like that bad of an idea. The 32X even sold well initially. I wanted one at launch, and bought one a few years ago (it truly is terrible). At launch it was a relatively cheap entry into 3D gaming. Keep in mind the only alternatives were multi thousand dollar PCs and the $800 3DO, not adjusted for inflation. But the announcement of the Saturn soon after killed the 32X. And programming for two VDPs was incredibly difficult. Especially considering games were still being written in assembly even at that point in the industry. Plus the economics didn't make sense. It is cheaper to manufacture a single console instead of a base system and add-on separately. You end up confusing the consumer, and limiting market reach because your add-on market is a subset of your base unit's market size. And the games were bad for the most part. Really bad. I have played the majority of home consoles. Even the likes of the 3DO, Jaguar, Virtual Boy, Sega CD, etc. The 32X is easily one of the worst consoles, ever, period.
  - egypturnash 7y ago
    IIRC the PlayStation VR helmet has a lot of onboard processing to help it generate two high-framerate screens. I’m not too up on its specs as I am really not at a place in my life where I’m willing to dedicate a room to VR and spend the cost of another console on the thing. Really though I feel that the response of any console manufacturer to “hey let’s bring back the 32x” would be “do you know how much money that thing lost Sega”. Just update the specs a bit and sell a “Pro” or “Plus” model for the same cost as the original launch cost, and sell the old design for less. You can get external FireWire boxes to cram graphics cards in for your computer; my general impression of the market is that “serious gamers” who “need” 120fps are pouring lots of money into Windows machines with pricey graphics cards.
monocasa 7y ago
The N64 didn't use any chips like this AFAIK. I've seen maker prototypes using this scheme on a GameBoy, and wouldn't be surprised to see a GameBoy Advance cart that used them but don't know of any off the top of my head except as a built in peripheral (so RTC, tilt sensor, some communication mechanism, etc.) And it'd be a real pain to add chips like this to any later systems. The architecture is a little different, and the cartridges aren't actually mapped into the system's main address space anymore. They are relatively slow buses that look more like mass storage to the rest of the system. They can't DMA directly and that hop to hit the rest of the system obviates a lot of the benefit of having a co processor on there.
Lord_Nightmare 7y ago
Yes: The Gameboy Player for the Gamecube has a GBA processor and some glue logic inside it. There is at least one Nintendo DS cartridge which has a bluetooth chip inside it: Pokémon: Typing Adventure/ And several Gameboy Advance cartridges in the Boktai series have a 'sun sensor' in them. I'm sure there are other examples as well.

bitwize 7y ago

I think Switch carts use a form of flash memory, which precludes this sort of extra-flexible expansion. You could include a chip on the cart, but it wouldn't have much throughput to do things like real-time graphics transformation. As for compression, most consoles just do regular decompression with the open source image libraries in the system BIOS, or on-GPU texture decompression. It wouldn't surprise me if the sprites in a game like River City Girls, for instance, were just PNGs.

monocasa 7y ago
Small correction: the chips inside switch cartridges are mainly mask ROMs, not Flash.
fl0wenol 7y ago
The Switch is "just" an Nvidia Shield, albeit not running android. The carts are your standard mask ROM on a (proprietary) bus manufactured by Macronix and so would not be able to extend the functionality in a meaningful way. Texture decompression is handled using the hardware acceleration on the Tegra if being used to save VRAM, otherwise using standard libraries (like libpng, libjpeg, etc.) in the game software.

codesushi42 7y ago

32X was a similar concept, with the idea of packaging up and reusing enhancement chips in a base cartridge that would add 3D support to the Genesis. The Genesis VDP is still used in 32X games, usually to render the background while the 32X's VDP renders flat shaded polygons on top. The Saturn uses a similar architecture of using two VDPs, with one mainly dedicated to rendering the background.

velox_io 7y ago
I'm surprised this concept died out. Take the next-gen consoles, they're supporting games at 120fps/120hz. They could target 60fps (what the vast majority of users will use) and daisy-chain another console for the serious gamers who 'need' 120fps. This could be done through the HDMI cable (which supports ethernet in addition to video & sound), it could even be enhanced to support 8k. Yes, this is essentially SLI/ CrossFire, something that has been around for some time, and support would be described as patchy at best. I believe the main issue is that it's left to game developers to implement, rather than something abstracted away to the graphics drivers/ GPUs.
- codesushi42 7y ago
  Hindsight is always 20/20. At the time, and even on paper, 32X did not sound like that bad of an idea. The 32X even sold well initially. I wanted one at launch, and bought one a few years ago (it truly is terrible). At launch it was a relatively cheap entry into 3D gaming. Keep in mind the only alternatives were multi thousand dollar PCs and the $800 3DO, not adjusted for inflation. But the announcement of the Saturn soon after killed the 32X. And programming for two VDPs was incredibly difficult. Especially considering games were still being written in assembly even at that point in the industry. Plus the economics didn't make sense. It is cheaper to manufacture a single console instead of a base system and add-on separately. You end up confusing the consumer, and limiting market reach because your add-on market is a subset of your base unit's market size. And the games were bad for the most part. Really bad. I have played the majority of home consoles. Even the likes of the 3DO, Jaguar, Virtual Boy, Sega CD, etc. The 32X is easily one of the worst consoles, ever, period.
- egypturnash 7y ago
  IIRC the PlayStation VR helmet has a lot of onboard processing to help it generate two high-framerate screens. I’m not too up on its specs as I am really not at a place in my life where I’m willing to dedicate a room to VR and spend the cost of another console on the thing. Really though I feel that the response of any console manufacturer to “hey let’s bring back the 32x” would be “do you know how much money that thing lost Sega”. Just update the specs a bit and sell a “Pro” or “Plus” model for the same cost as the original launch cost, and sell the old design for less. You can get external FireWire boxes to cram graphics cards in for your computer; my general impression of the market is that “serious gamers” who “need” 120fps are pouring lots of money into Windows machines with pricey graphics cards.

monocasa 7y ago

The N64 didn't use any chips like this AFAIK. I've seen maker prototypes using this scheme on a GameBoy, and wouldn't be surprised to see a GameBoy Advance cart that used them but don't know of any off the top of my head except as a built in peripheral (so RTC, tilt sensor, some communication mechanism, etc.) And it'd be a real pain to add chips like this to any later systems. The architecture is a little different, and the cartridges aren't actually mapped into the system's main address space anymore. They are relatively slow buses that look more like mass storage to the rest of the system. They can't DMA directly and that hop to hit the rest of the system obviates a lot of the benefit of having a co processor on there.

Lord_Nightmare 7y ago

Yes: The Gameboy Player for the Gamecube has a GBA processor and some glue logic inside it. There is at least one Nintendo DS cartridge which has a bluetooth chip inside it: Pokémon: Typing Adventure/ And several Gameboy Advance cartridges in the Boktai series have a 'sun sensor' in them. I'm sure there are other examples as well.