8 ms·

I did a tour of duty with the USDS and you are so far from the truth its painful. There are very few individuals there who made millions in social media, and th

I did a tour of duty with the USDS and you are so far from the truth its painful. There are very few individuals there who made millions in social media, and the technical staff is so far beyond any other organization I have ever seen. Most of the engineers there looked around at the country and felt there was simple things that would make life so much better for their neighbors and friends, and they knew they were wasting their time trying to make people click on advertisements. For my part my father is a veteran who had to deal with the VA for his doctors appointments and benefits and his experience was beyond bad ( which is something you can hear from lots of veterans ). When I got the opportunity to join the USDS and work at the VA with the Secretary of the VA and the Senior Executives I also felt it was a fools errand, but I figured if I didn't at least try how could I expect anything to get better for my dad. I joined a agency that was struggling to get even basic IT systems working, and with the help of world class engineers and dedicated public servants we helped millions of veterans and literally saved lives. I have had veterans break down crying telling us how much better their life is now that they can actually engage with a agency who was trying to provide them services. Quite frankly the people who staff the USDS are not only the most technically competent, but their dedication to service is so strong, and their ability to succeed in impossible situations though sheer force of will and dedication so overwhelming they have radically changed how this country operates, and there is still individuals there who are continuing on the mission. What did you do with your life? If your concerned about the pay cut and poor working conditions then stay at your job and see if you can manipulate people into clicking on ads better, but just know those people who you just looked down on are making a difference. * Also for the record my tour of duty ended two years ago, and I am no longer associated with the USDS, I am just a huge fan who's life was changed by what I saw while I was there.

iamleppert 7y ago
I heard this same story at the recruitment event. Something about creating a PDF document translator for the VA? It seemed like grunt work to me that was lauded as making a difference when it reality it likely didn't matter. The problem is, I'm not willing to work below market rate -- for anyone. The government has a lot of resources, they are just used inappropriately. I'm not willing to work for beans for the government, and billing it as a "service to your country" is just a way to get people to feel like they aren't being taken advantage of. Pay people what they are worth. Be honest. Provide a good working environment. Treat people with respect. Put a little effort into the recruitment events like you actually care about people. If the government wants to attract good technical talent, they need to offer the same or similar benefits that tech companies do, and they need to pay people what they are worth. Who would have thought?
- ajross 7y ago
  > I'm not willing to work below market rate -- for anyone. So your argument is that the USDS is bad because you personally don't want to work there?
  - j88439h84 7y ago
    Seems likely that other people feel the same.
  - iamleppert 7y ago
    My argument is that progress made by asking people to work for less than what they are worth for a large institution like the government who has the resources to pay people a fair wage, is wrong on first principles. If your entire operational model relies on taking advantage of others, asking people to make huge personal sacrifices because you don't want to properly fund a program, there's something wrong. It's the classic "ends justify the means" argument.
    - ajross 7y ago
      Doesn't that rule out intern positions too? Apprenticeship relationships? Formalized pay grade schemes like the military's? Collective bargaining? Minimum wage laws? "Cost of living" wage adjustments for location? You're making this kind of absolutist argument that to my eyes is just ridiculous on its face. Different people want different things, and are willing to accept different raw salary numbers for them. The whole point of having an employment market is precisely to allow different people to make these choices and come to an appropriate equilibrium. If you personally don't want to work for the government for lower pay than you could get in the private sector, that's fine. But that's not a principled argument about wage structures, it's just your choice. And empirically, it's not everyone's.
      - iamleppert 7y ago
        Interns and apprenticeships should be paid too. They should be paid a market rate that is enough to live comfortably on. Not sure how you can argue against the simple fact that people need to be paid a decent, fair wage. At all levels of your career, including your first job. A startup doesn't get a pass just as the government shouldn't get a pass for "mission based" worked. Everything and everyone has a mission, but that is separate from the fact people need to be paid (& treated) fairly.
chimeracoder 7y ago
> I did a tour of duty with the USDS > * Also for the record my tour of duty ended two years ago Is there some official marketing for the USDS that uses this term "tour of duty" to refer to a civilian government job? This comment uses that exact phrase twice, and I've seen other people use it with reference to the USDS as well. It's honestly a huge turnoff, more than anything else GP mentioned. There are some situations under which I'd be willing to work for below-market rates. But the last thing i would ever want is for my work to be associated with the culture and goals of the military, or for my coworkers to view our job in that light.
- ineedasername 7y ago
  If you don't like it, blame the USDS, they're the ones that use this language: [0] "Our staff comes from all corners of the technology industry, nonprofit world, and government to serve ‘tours’ of service, bringing a steady influx of fresh perspectives into government. Tours typically last between six months and two years, with a maximum length of four years." [0] https://www.usds.gov/how-we-work https://www.usds.gov/how-we-work
  - chimeracoder 7y ago
    > If you don't like it, blame the USDS, they're the ones that use this language: [0] "Our staff comes from all corners of the technology industry, nonprofit world, and government to serve ‘tours’ of service, bringing a steady influx of fresh perspectives into government. Tours typically last between six months and two years, with a maximum length of four years." Thanks for answering the question. So it is, in fact, a conscious decision by the USDS, which doesn't reflect well on their work culture IMO.
    - ineedasername 7y ago
      It does seem a choice of words that would rankle on people who do a real tour of military duty. I get they want to make the work sounds important, the people that do it as part of an important mission, but I'm not sure that's the best way.
dilippkumar 7y ago
> What did you do with your life? Unrelated to the original topic, but I want to point out that this question and it’s cousins are a massive red flag for me. Being content with life is hard. For many people who are still in the early stages of figuring it out, this question is poison. It attacks a specific insecurity and is always only used to recruit young people into a workforce that is otherwise hard to staff (militaries, rebel causes, government services etc) When “what have you done with your life?” is replaced with “Do x, and your life will be more meaningful”, the advertising tactic becomes more visible. But the people who want to find such answers must seek therapy, not enroll for whatever job opportunity is being nefariously advertised.
- dkhenry 7y ago
  I agree with you generally that this kind of question can be used to manipulate, however I also feel those of us in the Technology sector need to answer it. So many of us are spending our lives without thinking about what we are doing. We just do whatever pays the best or gives us the nicest life. Meanwhile there are _huge_ problems that need to be solved, and we are ignoring them. So it is a loaded question, but I feel its one people in the tech industry need to ask themselves.
  - dang 7y ago
    It's fine if you ask that question in a way that makes it clear you're asking it in general. But if you're talking to a specific person and you say that, many if not most readers will hear it as a personal attack, so please don't bring it up that way on HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
xaybey 7y ago
You did not do a 'tour of duty', you worked a comfortable, air-conditioned, white collar job for a few years. Co-opting the language of actual military service is downright offensive.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

iamleppert 7y ago

I heard this same story at the recruitment event. Something about creating a PDF document translator for the VA? It seemed like grunt work to me that was lauded as making a difference when it reality it likely didn't matter. The problem is, I'm not willing to work below market rate -- for anyone. The government has a lot of resources, they are just used inappropriately. I'm not willing to work for beans for the government, and billing it as a "service to your country" is just a way to get people to feel like they aren't being taken advantage of. Pay people what they are worth. Be honest. Provide a good working environment. Treat people with respect. Put a little effort into the recruitment events like you actually care about people. If the government wants to attract good technical talent, they need to offer the same or similar benefits that tech companies do, and they need to pay people what they are worth. Who would have thought?

ajross 7y ago
> I'm not willing to work below market rate -- for anyone. So your argument is that the USDS is bad because you personally don't want to work there?
- j88439h84 7y ago
  Seems likely that other people feel the same.
- iamleppert 7y ago
  My argument is that progress made by asking people to work for less than what they are worth for a large institution like the government who has the resources to pay people a fair wage, is wrong on first principles. If your entire operational model relies on taking advantage of others, asking people to make huge personal sacrifices because you don't want to properly fund a program, there's something wrong. It's the classic "ends justify the means" argument.
  - ajross 7y ago
    Doesn't that rule out intern positions too? Apprenticeship relationships? Formalized pay grade schemes like the military's? Collective bargaining? Minimum wage laws? "Cost of living" wage adjustments for location? You're making this kind of absolutist argument that to my eyes is just ridiculous on its face. Different people want different things, and are willing to accept different raw salary numbers for them. The whole point of having an employment market is precisely to allow different people to make these choices and come to an appropriate equilibrium. If you personally don't want to work for the government for lower pay than you could get in the private sector, that's fine. But that's not a principled argument about wage structures, it's just your choice. And empirically, it's not everyone's.
    - iamleppert 7y ago
      Interns and apprenticeships should be paid too. They should be paid a market rate that is enough to live comfortably on. Not sure how you can argue against the simple fact that people need to be paid a decent, fair wage. At all levels of your career, including your first job. A startup doesn't get a pass just as the government shouldn't get a pass for "mission based" worked. Everything and everyone has a mission, but that is separate from the fact people need to be paid (& treated) fairly.

chimeracoder 7y ago

> I did a tour of duty with the USDS > * Also for the record my tour of duty ended two years ago Is there some official marketing for the USDS that uses this term "tour of duty" to refer to a civilian government job? This comment uses that exact phrase twice, and I've seen other people use it with reference to the USDS as well. It's honestly a huge turnoff, more than anything else GP mentioned. There are some situations under which I'd be willing to work for below-market rates. But the last thing i would ever want is for my work to be associated with the culture and goals of the military, or for my coworkers to view our job in that light.

ineedasername 7y ago
If you don't like it, blame the USDS, they're the ones that use this language: [0] "Our staff comes from all corners of the technology industry, nonprofit world, and government to serve ‘tours’ of service, bringing a steady influx of fresh perspectives into government. Tours typically last between six months and two years, with a maximum length of four years." [0] https://www.usds.gov/how-we-work https://www.usds.gov/how-we-work
- chimeracoder 7y ago
  > If you don't like it, blame the USDS, they're the ones that use this language: [0] "Our staff comes from all corners of the technology industry, nonprofit world, and government to serve ‘tours’ of service, bringing a steady influx of fresh perspectives into government. Tours typically last between six months and two years, with a maximum length of four years." Thanks for answering the question. So it is, in fact, a conscious decision by the USDS, which doesn't reflect well on their work culture IMO.
  - ineedasername 7y ago
    It does seem a choice of words that would rankle on people who do a real tour of military duty. I get they want to make the work sounds important, the people that do it as part of an important mission, but I'm not sure that's the best way.

dilippkumar 7y ago

> What did you do with your life? Unrelated to the original topic, but I want to point out that this question and it’s cousins are a massive red flag for me. Being content with life is hard. For many people who are still in the early stages of figuring it out, this question is poison. It attacks a specific insecurity and is always only used to recruit young people into a workforce that is otherwise hard to staff (militaries, rebel causes, government services etc) When “what have you done with your life?” is replaced with “Do x, and your life will be more meaningful”, the advertising tactic becomes more visible. But the people who want to find such answers must seek therapy, not enroll for whatever job opportunity is being nefariously advertised.

dkhenry 7y ago
I agree with you generally that this kind of question can be used to manipulate, however I also feel those of us in the Technology sector need to answer it. So many of us are spending our lives without thinking about what we are doing. We just do whatever pays the best or gives us the nicest life. Meanwhile there are _huge_ problems that need to be solved, and we are ignoring them. So it is a loaded question, but I feel its one people in the tech industry need to ask themselves.
- dang 7y ago
  It's fine if you ask that question in a way that makes it clear you're asking it in general. But if you're talking to a specific person and you say that, many if not most readers will hear it as a personal attack, so please don't bring it up that way on HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

xaybey 7y ago

You did not do a 'tour of duty', you worked a comfortable, air-conditioned, white collar job for a few years. Co-opting the language of actual military service is downright offensive.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]