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I went to a recruiting event for the United States Digital Service. It was a complete joke. It seemed to be a mix of early social media employees who had made t

I went to a recruiting event for the United States Digital Service. It was a complete joke. It seemed to be a mix of early social media employees who had made their millions and now wanted “to give back” and government staffers. The rest of the technical staff was low quality (& low paid). They made a point of telling me that I’d have to take a huge pay cut and work with out of date equipment, and deal with extreme amounts of red tape. They tried to sell it as a “challenge” but all I could see was some people from the government trying to find gullible people to take advantage. At the event in SF they had stale sugar cookies & bottles of water for refreshments. Several people (myself included) got up half way during their pitch and left. Not sure I’d ever want to work for the federal government after that experience.

president 7y ago
Depends on what your values are. If you think you could make this country better by giving your service, that is to some people, more valuable than getting paid a decent tech wage. If enough talented people were willing to sacrifice to reform the system, it might be be better off for the children of tomorrow.
cheriot 7y ago
> They made a point of telling me that I’d have to take a huge pay cut and work with out of date equipment, and deal with extreme amounts of red tape. > stale sugar cookies & bottles of water for refreshments Well, that's what the government runs on. Old tech, low pay, and minimal perks. But there is impactful work to be done and some people are motivated by that.
- MuffinFlavored 7y ago
  Serious question: with how big the federal budget is for... pretty much everything... why is this the case? Is there truly not enough funding? How much money goes in and where does the money go? I feel like time and time again I read how private sector can do better than the public sector, in all sectors.
  - cheriot 7y ago
    > Serious question: with how big the federal budget is for... pretty much everything... why is this the case? Is there truly not enough funding? How much money goes in and where does the money go? By the time we're talking about non-military discretionary spending it's 15% of the total. https://www.nationalpriorities.org/budget-basics/federal-budget-101/spending/ https://www.nationalpriorities.org/budget-basics/federal-bud... > I feel like time and time again I read how private sector can do better than the public sector, in all sectors. The private sector has its own problems. Do we want the government to be more like PG&E and Comcast? Consider the difference in outcomes between for-profit universities and state schools. The topic is too in depth for a random internet comment, but things really need to be taken on a case by case basis. It's all about incentives.
  - jackcosgrove 7y ago
    In discussions like this I feel there's a big bias in favor of what's called "institutionalism". This is a theory that the attributes of the institutions people work in, such as budget, governance, size, etc., most determine outcomes. While there's a lot of truth to this, I think it's overused as an explanation because blaming the institution is less painful when there's a failed outcome. Talent, on the other hand, is less used as an explanation because when there's a bad outcome, it hurts more to blame those, even partially, who were executing towards the goal. However in some endeavors talent matters a lot, and software is one of them. The Mythical Man-Month is a great book that examines software project failure, whose conclusions are that "institutional" solutions to software problems, such as more staff or more budget, aren't as good as "talent" solutions, such as hiring the best person in the world for an absurdly high salary and having them do most of the work. That's a long-winded answer to why the private sector is better than the public sector at some things: it does a better job at rewarding, and thus attracting, talent. The public sector, by contrast, is more likely to promote based on seniority and base political values, which in a democracy include equality and solidarity.
mankyd 7y ago
I am curious what you wanted from them? They aren't overflowing in cash.
dkhenry 7y ago
I did a tour of duty with the USDS and you are so far from the truth its painful. There are very few individuals there who made millions in social media, and the technical staff is so far beyond any other organization I have ever seen. Most of the engineers there looked around at the country and felt there was simple things that would make life so much better for their neighbors and friends, and they knew they were wasting their time trying to make people click on advertisements. For my part my father is a veteran who had to deal with the VA for his doctors appointments and benefits and his experience was beyond bad ( which is something you can hear from lots of veterans ). When I got the opportunity to join the USDS and work at the VA with the Secretary of the VA and the Senior Executives I also felt it was a fools errand, but I figured if I didn't at least try how could I expect anything to get better for my dad. I joined a agency that was struggling to get even basic IT systems working, and with the help of world class engineers and dedicated public servants we helped millions of veterans and literally saved lives. I have had veterans break down crying telling us how much better their life is now that they can actually engage with a agency who was trying to provide them services. Quite frankly the people who staff the USDS are not only the most technically competent, but their dedication to service is so strong, and their ability to succeed in impossible situations though sheer force of will and dedication so overwhelming they have radically changed how this country operates, and there is still individuals there who are continuing on the mission. What did you do with your life? If your concerned about the pay cut and poor working conditions then stay at your job and see if you can manipulate people into clicking on ads better, but just know those people who you just looked down on are making a difference. * Also for the record my tour of duty ended two years ago, and I am no longer associated with the USDS, I am just a huge fan who's life was changed by what I saw while I was there.
- iamleppert 7y ago
  I heard this same story at the recruitment event. Something about creating a PDF document translator for the VA? It seemed like grunt work to me that was lauded as making a difference when it reality it likely didn't matter. The problem is, I'm not willing to work below market rate -- for anyone. The government has a lot of resources, they are just used inappropriately. I'm not willing to work for beans for the government, and billing it as a "service to your country" is just a way to get people to feel like they aren't being taken advantage of. Pay people what they are worth. Be honest. Provide a good working environment. Treat people with respect. Put a little effort into the recruitment events like you actually care about people. If the government wants to attract good technical talent, they need to offer the same or similar benefits that tech companies do, and they need to pay people what they are worth. Who would have thought?
alexpotato 7y ago
Whenever I read people's thoughts on this I think of the saying/rap lyrics: "Money, power, respect. It's the key to life." Which has also been described as the three main rewards that people value (sometimes in combination). (I often equate respect with fame in the examples below) e.g. College Professor: - low money - medium power - high respect HFT Trader: - high money - low power - low respect/fame Mid level government bureaucrat that manages the budget of an important project: - low money - high power - low respect Not everyone is driven by money (or at least, by money alone).

president 7y ago

Depends on what your values are. If you think you could make this country better by giving your service, that is to some people, more valuable than getting paid a decent tech wage. If enough talented people were willing to sacrifice to reform the system, it might be be better off for the children of tomorrow.

cheriot 7y ago

> They made a point of telling me that I’d have to take a huge pay cut and work with out of date equipment, and deal with extreme amounts of red tape. > stale sugar cookies & bottles of water for refreshments Well, that's what the government runs on. Old tech, low pay, and minimal perks. But there is impactful work to be done and some people are motivated by that.

MuffinFlavored 7y ago
Serious question: with how big the federal budget is for... pretty much everything... why is this the case? Is there truly not enough funding? How much money goes in and where does the money go? I feel like time and time again I read how private sector can do better than the public sector, in all sectors.
- cheriot 7y ago
  > Serious question: with how big the federal budget is for... pretty much everything... why is this the case? Is there truly not enough funding? How much money goes in and where does the money go? By the time we're talking about non-military discretionary spending it's 15% of the total. https://www.nationalpriorities.org/budget-basics/federal-budget-101/spending/ https://www.nationalpriorities.org/budget-basics/federal-bud... > I feel like time and time again I read how private sector can do better than the public sector, in all sectors. The private sector has its own problems. Do we want the government to be more like PG&E and Comcast? Consider the difference in outcomes between for-profit universities and state schools. The topic is too in depth for a random internet comment, but things really need to be taken on a case by case basis. It's all about incentives.
- jackcosgrove 7y ago
  In discussions like this I feel there's a big bias in favor of what's called "institutionalism". This is a theory that the attributes of the institutions people work in, such as budget, governance, size, etc., most determine outcomes. While there's a lot of truth to this, I think it's overused as an explanation because blaming the institution is less painful when there's a failed outcome. Talent, on the other hand, is less used as an explanation because when there's a bad outcome, it hurts more to blame those, even partially, who were executing towards the goal. However in some endeavors talent matters a lot, and software is one of them. The Mythical Man-Month is a great book that examines software project failure, whose conclusions are that "institutional" solutions to software problems, such as more staff or more budget, aren't as good as "talent" solutions, such as hiring the best person in the world for an absurdly high salary and having them do most of the work. That's a long-winded answer to why the private sector is better than the public sector at some things: it does a better job at rewarding, and thus attracting, talent. The public sector, by contrast, is more likely to promote based on seniority and base political values, which in a democracy include equality and solidarity.

mankyd 7y ago

I am curious what you wanted from them? They aren't overflowing in cash.

dkhenry 7y ago

I did a tour of duty with the USDS and you are so far from the truth its painful. There are very few individuals there who made millions in social media, and the technical staff is so far beyond any other organization I have ever seen. Most of the engineers there looked around at the country and felt there was simple things that would make life so much better for their neighbors and friends, and they knew they were wasting their time trying to make people click on advertisements. For my part my father is a veteran who had to deal with the VA for his doctors appointments and benefits and his experience was beyond bad ( which is something you can hear from lots of veterans ). When I got the opportunity to join the USDS and work at the VA with the Secretary of the VA and the Senior Executives I also felt it was a fools errand, but I figured if I didn't at least try how could I expect anything to get better for my dad. I joined a agency that was struggling to get even basic IT systems working, and with the help of world class engineers and dedicated public servants we helped millions of veterans and literally saved lives. I have had veterans break down crying telling us how much better their life is now that they can actually engage with a agency who was trying to provide them services. Quite frankly the people who staff the USDS are not only the most technically competent, but their dedication to service is so strong, and their ability to succeed in impossible situations though sheer force of will and dedication so overwhelming they have radically changed how this country operates, and there is still individuals there who are continuing on the mission. What did you do with your life? If your concerned about the pay cut and poor working conditions then stay at your job and see if you can manipulate people into clicking on ads better, but just know those people who you just looked down on are making a difference. * Also for the record my tour of duty ended two years ago, and I am no longer associated with the USDS, I am just a huge fan who's life was changed by what I saw while I was there.

iamleppert 7y ago
I heard this same story at the recruitment event. Something about creating a PDF document translator for the VA? It seemed like grunt work to me that was lauded as making a difference when it reality it likely didn't matter. The problem is, I'm not willing to work below market rate -- for anyone. The government has a lot of resources, they are just used inappropriately. I'm not willing to work for beans for the government, and billing it as a "service to your country" is just a way to get people to feel like they aren't being taken advantage of. Pay people what they are worth. Be honest. Provide a good working environment. Treat people with respect. Put a little effort into the recruitment events like you actually care about people. If the government wants to attract good technical talent, they need to offer the same or similar benefits that tech companies do, and they need to pay people what they are worth. Who would have thought?

alexpotato 7y ago

Whenever I read people's thoughts on this I think of the saying/rap lyrics: "Money, power, respect. It's the key to life." Which has also been described as the three main rewards that people value (sometimes in combination). (I often equate respect with fame in the examples below) e.g. College Professor: - low money - medium power - high respect HFT Trader: - high money - low power - low respect/fame Mid level government bureaucrat that manages the budget of an important project: - low money - high power - low respect Not everyone is driven by money (or at least, by money alone).