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I've been saying this about the entire vaping industry since day one. You don't know what you're putting into your body, and even if the 'base' substance is le

I've been saying this about the entire vaping industry since day one. You don't know what you're putting into your body, and even if the 'base' substance is legit, you have no idea what contaminants might be present. Doing illegal drugs has a clear danger of bodily harm due to counterfeit and contaminated substances.

dqpb 7y ago
There is a surprising number of HN'ers irrationally committed to using and defending drugs. You would think a site oriented toward engineers would have more... Hypochondriacs - people aware of the fragility of their system. Maybe Im wrong about this being a site for engineers.
- oiasdjfoiasd 7y ago
  there are a lot more people doing drugs around you then you probably realize. they just aren't sharing it with you.
- moate 7y ago
  Let's break this one down. >>irrationally committed to using and defending drugs. Why is it irrational? You get plenty of libertarians who think that "let me ruin my body if I so choose" types as well as SJW "the war on drugs is a war on minorities" types on here. There's plenty of very rational arguments in favor of drug policy reform. >>You would think a site oriented toward engineers would have more... Hypochondriacs This is a hot take on engineers. Also, why not also assume that there's plenty of anxious personality types who want to find something to help them relax? Never mind there's just a general predilection towards mammalian minds to find ways to get distorted perception experiences{1}. >>Maybe Im wrong about this being a site for engineers. You are. It's "hacker" news, not "developer news" for a reason. I personally know I identify more with "hacker" than "developer" or "engineer". There's an overlap, but it's not 1:1. 1-https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1174878/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1174878/
- _bohm 7y ago
  Or, perhaps you've committed yourself to a rather narrow understanding of what engineers are "like" ;)
- sosodev 7y ago
  I can think of something that will make you a little less worried. What you're saying doesn't make sense. I like to think of myself as a fairly rational and intelligent human being. I'd say I'm pretty good at my software engineering job. That doesn't matter in this conversation though. There doesn't have to be any overlap between who I am professionally and who I am at home.
  - dqpb 7y ago
    Listen to what you're saying. You can think of a substance that will make you less worried about the effects of that substance. Do you not see how that creates a feedback loop that becomes increasingly unmonitorable? Maybe for you engineering is a job. For me it's a way of life. I can't turn off my perception of cause and effect when I go home for the day.
    - moate 7y ago
      I mean, depending on how far you go down that rabbit hole, people who have personality disorders shouldn't take drugs that help treat their disorders because they alter their perception. You're more than entitled to that belief, but I know plenty of medical professionals who would point out that you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. We're all unreliable narrators. We want to believe we aren't, but we are. If you accept that, you can begin to understand that this isn't existing in a vacuum. Let's say I smoke pot to relax, staying at home for the time I'm under the influence and generally just sort of hanging out. But I can also be aware of the fact that by it's nature, there's a possibility that I will be unable to determine when I need relaxation and when I need stressors for <reasons>. I can come up with all sorts of ways off the top of my head to deal with this potential problem. You do you man. I hope you're happy. Free will and all that. You might be trying to engineer your best life. I might just be killing time. Objective morality doesn't exist though. It's all trade offs.
- stordoff 7y ago
  Or maybe engineers are more likely to see the body as a machine, and thus have more of an interest in things that can affect or change the functioning of that machine. Personally, I think treating engineers as a homogeneous population is just fatally flawed.
- honkycat 7y ago
  Drugs make you feel good. They release chemicals in your brain that say: "Yeah, more of that!" There is a craft to producing the drugs. Home brewing beer and wine, growing a weed plant in the woods behind your house, these are fun hobbies which you get to enjoy and share the fruits of your labor. A lot of extremely talented people choose to do drugs daily to kick back and augment their moods. Drugs can be taken in a social setting such that you feel a communal experience in having your perceptions altered in a similar way in the same moment. They lower inhibitions and give you the opportunity to indulge in your senses. Humans have always done drugs and will continue to do so long after you and I are gone. Drugs have been used in coming of age rituals and celebrations for thousands of years. Just because you think "engineers" should be above such creature comforts does not mean your idea has any merit whatsoever. “Taking LSD was a profound experience, one of the most important things in my life. LSD shows you that there’s another side to the coin, and you can’t remember it when it wears off, but you know it. It reinforced my sense of what was important—creating great things instead of making money, putting things back into the stream of history and of human consciousness as much as I could.” - Steve Jobs
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - johnisgood 7y ago
    > Drugs make you feel good. They release chemicals in your brain that say: "Yeah, more of that!" I would like to add this: Alongside factors such as peer pressure and cultural availability, drugs are instrumental means to valuable ends. Muller and Schumann (2011) delineate the following well-established functions for non-addictive consumption: (1) improved social interaction; (2) facilitated mating and sexual behavior; (3) improved cognitive performance; (4) facilitated recovery and coping with psychological stress; (5) self-medication for mental problems; (6) sensory curiosity - expanded experiential horizon; and, finally, (7) euphoria and hedonia. Plus, being against the War on Drugs does not mean that one would personally consume drugs. For the curious I highly recommend a book titled "Addiction and Choice: Rethinking the relationship" by Nick Heather and Gabriel Segal: https://global.oup.com/academic/product/addiction-and-choice-9780198727224&lang=en https://global.oup.com/academic/product/addiction-and-choice...
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- linuxftw 7y ago
  Smart people have the ability to rationalize themselves into believing completely untrue things. > Maybe Im wrong about this being a site for engineers. You'll get a lot of engineers on engineering topics, but there seems to be a lot of engineering groupies on this site as well.
moate 7y ago
>>Doing illegal drugs... The problem isn't the legality (in many places these products are legal to sell, own and consume ignoring the federal prohibitions) it's the oversight and regulation. There was a lot of hasty roll out and it feels like a lot of states are catching up with these sort of regulatory issues well after they should have.
- linuxftw 7y ago
  I don't think it's regulations, I think it's that with legalization, some things improved, but it also created a broad market for counterfeit products. There are arbitrary limits on production capacity (eg, a home grower can only have 6 plants, 3 of which are mature, etc) which is creating artificial scarcity. Also, high taxes are helping to push people into the black market. In the case of other illegal drugs, there's just no telling what you're getting unless you watched someone make it yourself. A lot of illegal drugs are coming from overseas or developing nations generally. I'm sure they're using banned pesticides, slave and child labor, you name it, to make some of these drugs. There could be literally anything in those, it's just unsafe to consume.
  - moate 7y ago
    >>I think it's that with legalization, some things improved, but it also created a broad market for counterfeit products. I guess? I mean there's always been a market for counterfeit MJ products (everyone's heard the stories of people buying oregano at a concert) so I just don't feel like that's a "new" problem as much as a new version of an existing problem. Legalization and the general advent of e-cig/vaping products happened around the same time, so I don't know that we can separate what would have happened if pot had still been illegal but vaping had moved into it's current role the use. >> Also, high taxes are helping to push people into the black market. I think it's that people don't realize they're in the black market, which I view as a regulatory issue. Because everything exists in this quasi-legal (state yes, federal no) status, the industry hasn't really coalesced into a fully legit form. The legal, grey, and black markets all overlap constantly and people are confused about what they're buying. If I want to buy alcohol, I know when I'm buying a real product that had production standards vs something some dude made in his basement. Weed isn't at that place yet really.
jrace 7y ago
Doing legal drugs also have a clear danger of bodily harm due to allowed substances. From cigarettes, Asprin and a host of other allowed substances can cause real harm. The issue noted with carts can be traced back to the illegality of the drugs in question causing a market that allows this to flourish.
stordoff 7y ago
What you say holds true for illegal drugs (once you are in an illegal market, you have limited ways to know what's in what you are taking, and no remedy against the company), but making it legal doesn't change that - you need regulation and oversight. It doesn't get any safer if questionable companies can continue to make low-quality or unsafe products without regulations against them.
dillonmckay 7y ago
This happens to legal drugs, too. Excedrin was recalled in 2012 and new stock was unavailable for almost a year. https://abc13.com/archive/8639559/ https://abc13.com/archive/8639559/
- linuxftw 7y ago
  Illegal drugs don't recalled. If you get a tainted batch from your dealer and it kills your friends, what do you do? File a class action lawsuit against "Tommy the drug dude?" From the article: > FDA says there was a risk that it might be contaminated with opiate prescription drugs like morphine, which were made in the same plant Yeah, contaminated with morphine (another drug of legitimate use), not pesticides that break down into hydrogen cyanide, rat poison, or whatever else might be present in whatever illegal drugs someone might be taking.
- johnisgood 7y ago
  https://www.nytimes.com/1989/09/10/business/exposing-the-fda.html https://www.nytimes.com/1989/09/10/business/exposing-the-fda... Or this book, which is much more recent (2018) than the aforementioned article: http://www.ruwart.com/product/death-regulation http://www.ruwart.com/product/death-regulation will shed some light on the FDA. For those who want to get it off Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Death-Regulation-Robbed-Golden-Reclaim/dp/0963233610 https://www.amazon.com/Death-Regulation-Robbed-Golden-Reclai...

dqpb 7y ago

There is a surprising number of HN'ers irrationally committed to using and defending drugs. You would think a site oriented toward engineers would have more... Hypochondriacs - people aware of the fragility of their system. Maybe Im wrong about this being a site for engineers.

oiasdjfoiasd 7y ago
there are a lot more people doing drugs around you then you probably realize. they just aren't sharing it with you.
moate 7y ago
Let's break this one down. >>irrationally committed to using and defending drugs. Why is it irrational? You get plenty of libertarians who think that "let me ruin my body if I so choose" types as well as SJW "the war on drugs is a war on minorities" types on here. There's plenty of very rational arguments in favor of drug policy reform. >>You would think a site oriented toward engineers would have more... Hypochondriacs This is a hot take on engineers. Also, why not also assume that there's plenty of anxious personality types who want to find something to help them relax? Never mind there's just a general predilection towards mammalian minds to find ways to get distorted perception experiences{1}. >>Maybe Im wrong about this being a site for engineers. You are. It's "hacker" news, not "developer news" for a reason. I personally know I identify more with "hacker" than "developer" or "engineer". There's an overlap, but it's not 1:1. 1-https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1174878/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1174878/
_bohm 7y ago
Or, perhaps you've committed yourself to a rather narrow understanding of what engineers are "like" ;)
sosodev 7y ago
I can think of something that will make you a little less worried. What you're saying doesn't make sense. I like to think of myself as a fairly rational and intelligent human being. I'd say I'm pretty good at my software engineering job. That doesn't matter in this conversation though. There doesn't have to be any overlap between who I am professionally and who I am at home.
- dqpb 7y ago
  Listen to what you're saying. You can think of a substance that will make you less worried about the effects of that substance. Do you not see how that creates a feedback loop that becomes increasingly unmonitorable? Maybe for you engineering is a job. For me it's a way of life. I can't turn off my perception of cause and effect when I go home for the day.
  - moate 7y ago
    I mean, depending on how far you go down that rabbit hole, people who have personality disorders shouldn't take drugs that help treat their disorders because they alter their perception. You're more than entitled to that belief, but I know plenty of medical professionals who would point out that you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. We're all unreliable narrators. We want to believe we aren't, but we are. If you accept that, you can begin to understand that this isn't existing in a vacuum. Let's say I smoke pot to relax, staying at home for the time I'm under the influence and generally just sort of hanging out. But I can also be aware of the fact that by it's nature, there's a possibility that I will be unable to determine when I need relaxation and when I need stressors for <reasons>. I can come up with all sorts of ways off the top of my head to deal with this potential problem. You do you man. I hope you're happy. Free will and all that. You might be trying to engineer your best life. I might just be killing time. Objective morality doesn't exist though. It's all trade offs.
stordoff 7y ago
Or maybe engineers are more likely to see the body as a machine, and thus have more of an interest in things that can affect or change the functioning of that machine. Personally, I think treating engineers as a homogeneous population is just fatally flawed.
honkycat 7y ago
Drugs make you feel good. They release chemicals in your brain that say: "Yeah, more of that!" There is a craft to producing the drugs. Home brewing beer and wine, growing a weed plant in the woods behind your house, these are fun hobbies which you get to enjoy and share the fruits of your labor. A lot of extremely talented people choose to do drugs daily to kick back and augment their moods. Drugs can be taken in a social setting such that you feel a communal experience in having your perceptions altered in a similar way in the same moment. They lower inhibitions and give you the opportunity to indulge in your senses. Humans have always done drugs and will continue to do so long after you and I are gone. Drugs have been used in coming of age rituals and celebrations for thousands of years. Just because you think "engineers" should be above such creature comforts does not mean your idea has any merit whatsoever. “Taking LSD was a profound experience, one of the most important things in my life. LSD shows you that there’s another side to the coin, and you can’t remember it when it wears off, but you know it. It reinforced my sense of what was important—creating great things instead of making money, putting things back into the stream of history and of human consciousness as much as I could.” - Steve Jobs
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- johnisgood 7y ago
  > Drugs make you feel good. They release chemicals in your brain that say: "Yeah, more of that!" I would like to add this: Alongside factors such as peer pressure and cultural availability, drugs are instrumental means to valuable ends. Muller and Schumann (2011) delineate the following well-established functions for non-addictive consumption: (1) improved social interaction; (2) facilitated mating and sexual behavior; (3) improved cognitive performance; (4) facilitated recovery and coping with psychological stress; (5) self-medication for mental problems; (6) sensory curiosity - expanded experiential horizon; and, finally, (7) euphoria and hedonia. Plus, being against the War on Drugs does not mean that one would personally consume drugs. For the curious I highly recommend a book titled "Addiction and Choice: Rethinking the relationship" by Nick Heather and Gabriel Segal: https://global.oup.com/academic/product/addiction-and-choice-9780198727224&lang=en https://global.oup.com/academic/product/addiction-and-choice...
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
linuxftw 7y ago
Smart people have the ability to rationalize themselves into believing completely untrue things. > Maybe Im wrong about this being a site for engineers. You'll get a lot of engineers on engineering topics, but there seems to be a lot of engineering groupies on this site as well.

moate 7y ago

>>Doing illegal drugs... The problem isn't the legality (in many places these products are legal to sell, own and consume ignoring the federal prohibitions) it's the oversight and regulation. There was a lot of hasty roll out and it feels like a lot of states are catching up with these sort of regulatory issues well after they should have.

linuxftw 7y ago
I don't think it's regulations, I think it's that with legalization, some things improved, but it also created a broad market for counterfeit products. There are arbitrary limits on production capacity (eg, a home grower can only have 6 plants, 3 of which are mature, etc) which is creating artificial scarcity. Also, high taxes are helping to push people into the black market. In the case of other illegal drugs, there's just no telling what you're getting unless you watched someone make it yourself. A lot of illegal drugs are coming from overseas or developing nations generally. I'm sure they're using banned pesticides, slave and child labor, you name it, to make some of these drugs. There could be literally anything in those, it's just unsafe to consume.
- moate 7y ago
  >>I think it's that with legalization, some things improved, but it also created a broad market for counterfeit products. I guess? I mean there's always been a market for counterfeit MJ products (everyone's heard the stories of people buying oregano at a concert) so I just don't feel like that's a "new" problem as much as a new version of an existing problem. Legalization and the general advent of e-cig/vaping products happened around the same time, so I don't know that we can separate what would have happened if pot had still been illegal but vaping had moved into it's current role the use. >> Also, high taxes are helping to push people into the black market. I think it's that people don't realize they're in the black market, which I view as a regulatory issue. Because everything exists in this quasi-legal (state yes, federal no) status, the industry hasn't really coalesced into a fully legit form. The legal, grey, and black markets all overlap constantly and people are confused about what they're buying. If I want to buy alcohol, I know when I'm buying a real product that had production standards vs something some dude made in his basement. Weed isn't at that place yet really.

jrace 7y ago

Doing legal drugs also have a clear danger of bodily harm due to allowed substances. From cigarettes, Asprin and a host of other allowed substances can cause real harm. The issue noted with carts can be traced back to the illegality of the drugs in question causing a market that allows this to flourish.

stordoff 7y ago

What you say holds true for illegal drugs (once you are in an illegal market, you have limited ways to know what's in what you are taking, and no remedy against the company), but making it legal doesn't change that - you need regulation and oversight. It doesn't get any safer if questionable companies can continue to make low-quality or unsafe products without regulations against them.

dillonmckay 7y ago

This happens to legal drugs, too. Excedrin was recalled in 2012 and new stock was unavailable for almost a year. https://abc13.com/archive/8639559/ https://abc13.com/archive/8639559/

linuxftw 7y ago
Illegal drugs don't recalled. If you get a tainted batch from your dealer and it kills your friends, what do you do? File a class action lawsuit against "Tommy the drug dude?" From the article: > FDA says there was a risk that it might be contaminated with opiate prescription drugs like morphine, which were made in the same plant Yeah, contaminated with morphine (another drug of legitimate use), not pesticides that break down into hydrogen cyanide, rat poison, or whatever else might be present in whatever illegal drugs someone might be taking.
johnisgood 7y ago
https://www.nytimes.com/1989/09/10/business/exposing-the-fda.html https://www.nytimes.com/1989/09/10/business/exposing-the-fda... Or this book, which is much more recent (2018) than the aforementioned article: http://www.ruwart.com/product/death-regulation http://www.ruwart.com/product/death-regulation will shed some light on the FDA. For those who want to get it off Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Death-Regulation-Robbed-Golden-Reclaim/dp/0963233610 https://www.amazon.com/Death-Regulation-Robbed-Golden-Reclai...