3 ms·

Within the actual, global spectrum of political philosophies, the difference between American Democrats and Republicans is remarkably small, especially in compa

Within the actual, global spectrum of political philosophies, the difference between American Democrats and Republicans is remarkably small, especially in comparison to many European parliaments. Just look at the consensus about and subsequent lack of accountability for the Iraq War as an example. What do you think is an actual, meaningful consequence of something like “90% of journalists being Democrats.” In all the domains you cite, I see a general consensus around a right-wing perspective about America‘s place in the world.

AnthonyMouse 7y ago
Not only are they biased, most of the bias crosses party lines so that many opinions are never represented there? That would be worse rather than better, wouldn't it?
rayiner 7y ago
I think the trope that Americans are categorically right-wing compared to Europe is false. Just in 2017, the party that came in second in the Dutch elections proposed to ban the Quran and shut down all mosques. Le Pen, whose party is the offshoot of an actual Nazi party, won a third of the French vote. In the US, the idea of making English the national language is not something even Republicans push these days. In France, the idea of French as the national language is nearly universally supported. New Zealand and Ireland recently got rid of birthright citizenship. Attitudes that are part of the "mainstream right" in much of Europe would get you labeled a white supremacist in the U.S. On the economic front, U.S. Democrats are to the left of the European (and Canadian and Australian) center in many respects. Macron is a "socialist" that is trying to privatize SNCF. Sweden is extremely market oriented, has school vouchers, etc. The EU keeps pressing forward on privatization efforts in various sectors like rail and utilities. Trump was late to the game compared to France, Germany, Sweden, etc., in terms of cutting corporate taxes.
- claudeganon 7y ago
  > Attitudes that are part of the "mainstream right" in much of Europe would get you labeled a white supremacist in the U.S. That’s because Europe has a different historical and political context than the US though? Many of those policies would be correctly described as white supremacist if advocated for within the US context because the US is historically a white supremacist country and has organized much of its politics along those lines. In Europe, they would probably be understood as “fascistic” because, as you’ve correctly identified, many of their advocates descend from this ideology and its history on the continent. > On the economic front, U.S. Democrats are to the left of the European Historically, Democrats have supported charter schools, privatization, and kept in place corporate tax cuts passed by Republicans, so I’m not sure this bears scrutiny. While there is an emergent left flank of the Democratic party, it is deeply at odds with the party elite, their institutions, apparatuses, and is stymied by them at most turns.
  - rayiner 7y ago
    > That’s because Europe has a different historical and political context than the US though? Many of those policies would be correctly described as white supremacist if advocated for within the US context because the US is historically a white supremacist country and has organized much of its politics along those lines. That’s a weird bit of bootstrapping. France colonized Muslim countries in North Africa, and then when people came to France from those countries the French insisted they learn French, banned religious symbols like hijab, etc. French language and cultural purity absolutely is a sort of at least cultural supremacy. Likewise the success of right wing parties in Europe. They’re putatively nationalistic, but the strong anti-Muslim and anti-immigrant sentiments make clear they rest heavily on cultural and ethnic supremacy. > Historically, Democrats have supported charter schools, privatization, and kept in place corporate tax cuts passed by Republicans, so I’m not sure this bears scrutiny. While there is an emergent left flank of the Democratic party, it is deeply at odds with the party elite, their institutions, apparatuses, and is stymied by them at most turns. Democrats have a strong “party of FDR” trend, which is an anti-market, pro-regulation viewpoint. I’d characterize Clinton and Obama as exceptions, with the “Green New Deal” being a return to the norm. Meanwhile, Canada, Australia, and the EU have pushed ahead with deregulation and privatization under both liberal and conservative governments. Canada, for example, is basically an example of Clinton/Gingrich’s government trimming and “welfare to work” being applied for 30 years: https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTNKL91NcPG9IFqjCmi7ZZu0YEOJj1ZZd1r5xgdSUdPYwwFlE7N https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTNKL... Trudeau, a liberal, continues to promise corporate tax cuts and deregulation. Public transit in many european cities is opened up to competitive bidding. Stockholm’s subway is privately operated. I’m not aware of any privately operated subways in the US. France has extensive privatized water utilities. Europe continues to embrace markets and deregulation at a level Democrats have not done since Clinton.
- pgcj_poster 7y ago
  The person you're replying to was saying that range of political views between Democrats and Republicans is smaller than the range of views in Europe. As you've noted, there are some Nazi-adjacent parties winning elections in Europe. There are also some communist parties that have seats in European assemblies. That seems to support the idea that the difference between Republicans and Democrats is relatively small. Also, I don't think that even the "we want to shut down mosques" right-wing of Europe wants to eg. get rid of socialized healthcare.
- pgcj_poster 7y ago
  Also, the same policy can occupy a different place on the right-left spectrum in different countries. For example, as an American that's lived in France for a short time, I oppose English as the official language in the US, but I support French as an official language in France (although I might argue that other languages, like Occitan, should be given equal status as well). Why? Well, I don't think English is in any danger. People are learning English all over the world, and I've never in my entire time in the US had someone try to speak any language other the English to me. On the other hand, French, while still a very important language, is clearly on the decline compared to where it was a couple hundred years ago. Lots of French musicians these days write songs mostly in English. I'd be sad if the French language lost its central position in French society, and I think it actually is important for the government to try to stop that from happening.
- brmgb 7y ago
  No offense but Le Pen party is absolutely not an offshoot of a nazi party. The idea that you could casually label a third of France as nazy is strongly offensive. Le Pen actually tried to join the resistance as a teenager. It is a strongly nationalist and protectionist party which used to be/is xenophobic but it has nothing to do with the Nazi. Trump idea are more radical in a lot of way. Let's not forget he suggested actually building a wall at the border. Also Macron is rightfully seen as center right in France and certainly not as a socialist. French has been the official language of France since 1539. Having French as the official language is hardly a rightwing position. The question of having an official language is only seen as rightwing in the USA because it's done to spit the large part of the population speaking Spanish. This is purely cultural. It's a bit like supporting gun regulation which is seen as left wing in the USA while not supporting it is seen as being a lunatic in the rest of the world.
  - tptacek 7y ago
    Le Pen's father, the founder of the French National Front party, was a Holocaust denier who was forced to pay settlements over his statements. There's not "no" nexus between Le Pen and Nazism.
    - brmgb 7y ago
      Le Pen father is an antisemite, a racist and a generally despicable person who thought and was condamned for saying that the Holocaust is a mere "detail of history", not a denier. That doesn't in any way make his party a offshoot of the Nazi party especially in its modern form. You might be a mere American and therefore throwing the word Nazi casually like a low grade insult. That doesn't justify implying that a third of France is voting for the Nazi party.
      - rayiner 7y ago
        https://www.ft.com/content/967daaae-2412-11e7-8691-d5f7e0cd0a16 https://www.ft.com/content/967daaae-2412-11e7-8691-d5f7e0cd0... > The National Front party leader warned over the Easter weekend that French “civilisation” was under threat as she pledged to suspend all legal immigration and protect the French way of life, toning down her plan to take France out of the euro. > “Give us France back, damn it!” the far-right candidate demanded at a rally in Paris on Monday night as her supporters chanted: “This is our home!” > In comments clearly aimed at France’s Muslim population, she said: “In France, we drink wine whenever we want. In France we do not force women to wear the veil because they are impure . . . In France, we get to decide who deserves to become French.” Who are the people whose home France is?)

AnthonyMouse 7y ago

Not only are they biased, most of the bias crosses party lines so that many opinions are never represented there? That would be worse rather than better, wouldn't it?

rayiner 7y ago

I think the trope that Americans are categorically right-wing compared to Europe is false. Just in 2017, the party that came in second in the Dutch elections proposed to ban the Quran and shut down all mosques. Le Pen, whose party is the offshoot of an actual Nazi party, won a third of the French vote. In the US, the idea of making English the national language is not something even Republicans push these days. In France, the idea of French as the national language is nearly universally supported. New Zealand and Ireland recently got rid of birthright citizenship. Attitudes that are part of the "mainstream right" in much of Europe would get you labeled a white supremacist in the U.S. On the economic front, U.S. Democrats are to the left of the European (and Canadian and Australian) center in many respects. Macron is a "socialist" that is trying to privatize SNCF. Sweden is extremely market oriented, has school vouchers, etc. The EU keeps pressing forward on privatization efforts in various sectors like rail and utilities. Trump was late to the game compared to France, Germany, Sweden, etc., in terms of cutting corporate taxes.

claudeganon 7y ago
> Attitudes that are part of the "mainstream right" in much of Europe would get you labeled a white supremacist in the U.S. That’s because Europe has a different historical and political context than the US though? Many of those policies would be correctly described as white supremacist if advocated for within the US context because the US is historically a white supremacist country and has organized much of its politics along those lines. In Europe, they would probably be understood as “fascistic” because, as you’ve correctly identified, many of their advocates descend from this ideology and its history on the continent. > On the economic front, U.S. Democrats are to the left of the European Historically, Democrats have supported charter schools, privatization, and kept in place corporate tax cuts passed by Republicans, so I’m not sure this bears scrutiny. While there is an emergent left flank of the Democratic party, it is deeply at odds with the party elite, their institutions, apparatuses, and is stymied by them at most turns.
- rayiner 7y ago
  > That’s because Europe has a different historical and political context than the US though? Many of those policies would be correctly described as white supremacist if advocated for within the US context because the US is historically a white supremacist country and has organized much of its politics along those lines. That’s a weird bit of bootstrapping. France colonized Muslim countries in North Africa, and then when people came to France from those countries the French insisted they learn French, banned religious symbols like hijab, etc. French language and cultural purity absolutely is a sort of at least cultural supremacy. Likewise the success of right wing parties in Europe. They’re putatively nationalistic, but the strong anti-Muslim and anti-immigrant sentiments make clear they rest heavily on cultural and ethnic supremacy. > Historically, Democrats have supported charter schools, privatization, and kept in place corporate tax cuts passed by Republicans, so I’m not sure this bears scrutiny. While there is an emergent left flank of the Democratic party, it is deeply at odds with the party elite, their institutions, apparatuses, and is stymied by them at most turns. Democrats have a strong “party of FDR” trend, which is an anti-market, pro-regulation viewpoint. I’d characterize Clinton and Obama as exceptions, with the “Green New Deal” being a return to the norm. Meanwhile, Canada, Australia, and the EU have pushed ahead with deregulation and privatization under both liberal and conservative governments. Canada, for example, is basically an example of Clinton/Gingrich’s government trimming and “welfare to work” being applied for 30 years: https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTNKL91NcPG9IFqjCmi7ZZu0YEOJj1ZZd1r5xgdSUdPYwwFlE7N https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTNKL... Trudeau, a liberal, continues to promise corporate tax cuts and deregulation. Public transit in many european cities is opened up to competitive bidding. Stockholm’s subway is privately operated. I’m not aware of any privately operated subways in the US. France has extensive privatized water utilities. Europe continues to embrace markets and deregulation at a level Democrats have not done since Clinton.
pgcj_poster 7y ago
The person you're replying to was saying that range of political views between Democrats and Republicans is smaller than the range of views in Europe. As you've noted, there are some Nazi-adjacent parties winning elections in Europe. There are also some communist parties that have seats in European assemblies. That seems to support the idea that the difference between Republicans and Democrats is relatively small. Also, I don't think that even the "we want to shut down mosques" right-wing of Europe wants to eg. get rid of socialized healthcare.
pgcj_poster 7y ago
Also, the same policy can occupy a different place on the right-left spectrum in different countries. For example, as an American that's lived in France for a short time, I oppose English as the official language in the US, but I support French as an official language in France (although I might argue that other languages, like Occitan, should be given equal status as well). Why? Well, I don't think English is in any danger. People are learning English all over the world, and I've never in my entire time in the US had someone try to speak any language other the English to me. On the other hand, French, while still a very important language, is clearly on the decline compared to where it was a couple hundred years ago. Lots of French musicians these days write songs mostly in English. I'd be sad if the French language lost its central position in French society, and I think it actually is important for the government to try to stop that from happening.
brmgb 7y ago
No offense but Le Pen party is absolutely not an offshoot of a nazi party. The idea that you could casually label a third of France as nazy is strongly offensive. Le Pen actually tried to join the resistance as a teenager. It is a strongly nationalist and protectionist party which used to be/is xenophobic but it has nothing to do with the Nazi. Trump idea are more radical in a lot of way. Let's not forget he suggested actually building a wall at the border. Also Macron is rightfully seen as center right in France and certainly not as a socialist. French has been the official language of France since 1539. Having French as the official language is hardly a rightwing position. The question of having an official language is only seen as rightwing in the USA because it's done to spit the large part of the population speaking Spanish. This is purely cultural. It's a bit like supporting gun regulation which is seen as left wing in the USA while not supporting it is seen as being a lunatic in the rest of the world.
- tptacek 7y ago
  Le Pen's father, the founder of the French National Front party, was a Holocaust denier who was forced to pay settlements over his statements. There's not "no" nexus between Le Pen and Nazism.
  - brmgb 7y ago
    Le Pen father is an antisemite, a racist and a generally despicable person who thought and was condamned for saying that the Holocaust is a mere "detail of history", not a denier. That doesn't in any way make his party a offshoot of the Nazi party especially in its modern form. You might be a mere American and therefore throwing the word Nazi casually like a low grade insult. That doesn't justify implying that a third of France is voting for the Nazi party.
    - rayiner 7y ago
      https://www.ft.com/content/967daaae-2412-11e7-8691-d5f7e0cd0a16 https://www.ft.com/content/967daaae-2412-11e7-8691-d5f7e0cd0... > The National Front party leader warned over the Easter weekend that French “civilisation” was under threat as she pledged to suspend all legal immigration and protect the French way of life, toning down her plan to take France out of the euro. > “Give us France back, damn it!” the far-right candidate demanded at a rally in Paris on Monday night as her supporters chanted: “This is our home!” > In comments clearly aimed at France’s Muslim population, she said: “In France, we drink wine whenever we want. In France we do not force women to wear the veil because they are impure . . . In France, we get to decide who deserves to become French.” Who are the people whose home France is?)