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> Government can just declare your cash worthless, or devalue it though. That's the entire point of crypto, the government has nothing to do with it. Bitcoin w

> Government can just declare your cash worthless, or devalue it though. That's the entire point of crypto, the government has nothing to do with it. Bitcoin was being used for years before any laws came out.

criley2 7y ago
Mostly by criminals in money laundering and attempting to use the internet as a black market. Oh and investors buying to hold and watch it drop lol. I can't help but wonder whether or not people realize that everything from fascist dictators to literal jihadist terrorists desperately want government-less crypto currency to finally unlock their finances from western sanction, so they can super-charge their activity (be it oppressing their people, committing terror attacks, invading their neighbors, etc). There's a very real political cost to uncontrollable finance systems, and that cost is bourne in violence and suffering. That's before we begin to discuss unregulated black markets that thrive on unregulated currencies. How many kids are being hospitalized or dying because of black market vaping products they bought online?
- celticninja 7y ago
  Currently anyone including "fascist dictators to literal jihadist terrorists” as well as others of their ilk, like the Mexican Cartels, drug dealers, money launderers (and any other criminal bogeymen you want to bring up) are all happy to transact in USD. How many kids are being hospitalised because of black market vaping products bought online with VISA/MASTERCARD/PAYPAL? Every issue you have with bitcoin exists with other currencies and mediums if exchange. Bitcoin is a drip in the ocean in comparison. If these are genuine concerns of your you should focus on another method of preventing them.
  - criley2 7y ago
    >How many kids are being hospitalised because of black market vaping products bought online with VISA/MASTERCARD/PAYPAL? A lot less than you think. These networks, UNLIKE BITCOIN, are regulated, must follow the law, and actively combat fraud and crime on their networks. They keep records and turn records over to law enforcement and many criminals have been caught because they used these networks. >are all happy to transact in USD. Where we have laws and regulations, flagging, bank reporting, and entire law enforcement divisions dedicated to tracking financial crime, combating it, and bringing lawsuit against those who do it. Almost every major criminal who chose to use USD got caught because of that choice. Unlike Bitcoin, which is unregulated, unmonitored, with no ability to flag suspicious transactions, and no ability to ban bad actors. >Every issue you have with bitcoin exists with other currencies and mediums if exchange. This is extremely false. Major networks all obey law and regulation, assist law enforcement actively, track and report suspicious uses, and are vital in combating sex trafficking, drug trafficking and terrorism. I'm frankly shocked at the illogical nature of your reply, to false equivocate between a fully deregulated currency that has no law enforcement whatsoever, with one of the most regulated and monitored currencies in the world -- it's breathtaking. To prove how illogical and ridiculous you are being, I will ask you one question: If you want to buy $15,000 worth of heroin from a dark net drug distributor, would you do it in bitcoin, or a USD wire transfer? Your answer to this question should help you realize the ridiculously fallacious nature of your reply to me. >If these are genuine concerns of your you should focus on another method of preventing them. We successfully combat these things in USD, Visa, etc. We cannot combat them BY DESIGN in bitcoin. For you to suggest that we abandon the only mediums where we can track and stop criminals and switch to a medium where criminals are largely untrackable and operate freely without fear, it's beyond illogical, it's downright insane. "Someone got murdered once, that proves the police are 100% ineffective and we should switch to a society without police!"
    - celticninja 7y ago
      >A lot less than you think. Citation please. >If you want to buy $15,000 worth of heroin from a dark net drug distributor, would you do it in bitcoin, or a USD wire transfer? Sure, you use bitcoin because thats what online distributors accept. But you answer me this, if I want to buy 50kg of cocaine or heroin, am I paying the Mexican Cartels/Afghan warlords/Colombian cartels USD or BTC? >We successfully combat these things in USD, Visa, et If we could successfully combat these with VISA would carding still be a thing? Would identity theft be a thing? 1bn was stolen from Moldovan banks by bank transfer and they still couldn't get the money back. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldovan_bank_fraud_scandal https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldovan_bank_fraud_scandal So it's hardly like any of these are a secure medium, sure there are laws that can be used to prosecute offenders, same ones that can be used for crimes involving bitcoin. Bitcoin is also trackable/traceable with the right resources BY DESIGN (not sure why that matter but it matters to you). Also I think it was the SEC who said that cash was the preferred option for criminals, with bitcoin being a very small area for money laundering or other criminal activities. There is a lot of hyperbole in your comment (breathtaking, insane, illogical) and a significant misunderstanding of bitcoin. Perhaps don't act so superior when you don't know everything.
- jkepler 7y ago
  Plus, haven't governments massacred millions of people? If you're concerned to protect human rights from evil, look no further than the 20th centuries wars, pogroms, and political cleansings. How did all these governments fund all that evil: typically by abandoning sound money and massively inflating their currencies.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - hef19898 7y ago
    Nor necessarily. The German hyper inflation happened in the 20s as a direct result of the financial crash in the US and had nothing to do with a war. Same for Germany after WW2, during the war the currency held itself rather well, the collapse happened after the war. That countries usually overstretch their economies is something different from inflating money.
- miracle2k 7y ago
  As someone who's family is affected by the Iran sanctions regime I think that Bitcoin being useful to circumvent it is a rather wonderful thing.
  - criley2 7y ago
    As someone who doesn't like it when Iran threatens to murder me and my people, I don't like that they hire terrorists to attack the world oil system while chanting death to me. Crazy, I know.
    - hef19898 7y ago
      Government =/= people affected by sanctions.
    - miracle2k 7y ago
      So the benefit of controllable finance systems is not that they eliminate violence and suffering, only that the powerful can decide who is to bear it.
- fbisevil 7y ago
  Ah yes, we must protect the world from the terrorists and pedophiles; think of the children! These are the same excuses used to justify mass surveillance, militarized police, the "need" of the government to control currency/finance, the war on terror, searches of technology and social media at the border, the war on drugs, and countless other authoritarian nonsense
- ClumsyPilot 7y ago
  Of all things in the world, you talk about vaping products? Do Mexican cartels accept bitcoin? Do black market arms dealers? Prostitution, modern slavery? Bitcoin increased a thousand times in value, and it made no material difference to circulation of illegal goods. You can't even buy weed from local dealers with it.
  - slowhand09 7y ago
    One reason (IMHO) for your last statement is people in general (A) don't understand crytocoin/blockchain blah-blah, and (B) if they attempt to buy some they discover an ATM charges them 10-20% to convert $ to BTC.
    - zirs3d 7y ago
      Adoption will be swift, and then ton might just make it

criley2 7y ago

Mostly by criminals in money laundering and attempting to use the internet as a black market. Oh and investors buying to hold and watch it drop lol. I can't help but wonder whether or not people realize that everything from fascist dictators to literal jihadist terrorists desperately want government-less crypto currency to finally unlock their finances from western sanction, so they can super-charge their activity (be it oppressing their people, committing terror attacks, invading their neighbors, etc). There's a very real political cost to uncontrollable finance systems, and that cost is bourne in violence and suffering. That's before we begin to discuss unregulated black markets that thrive on unregulated currencies. How many kids are being hospitalized or dying because of black market vaping products they bought online?

celticninja 7y ago
Currently anyone including "fascist dictators to literal jihadist terrorists” as well as others of their ilk, like the Mexican Cartels, drug dealers, money launderers (and any other criminal bogeymen you want to bring up) are all happy to transact in USD. How many kids are being hospitalised because of black market vaping products bought online with VISA/MASTERCARD/PAYPAL? Every issue you have with bitcoin exists with other currencies and mediums if exchange. Bitcoin is a drip in the ocean in comparison. If these are genuine concerns of your you should focus on another method of preventing them.
- criley2 7y ago
  >How many kids are being hospitalised because of black market vaping products bought online with VISA/MASTERCARD/PAYPAL? A lot less than you think. These networks, UNLIKE BITCOIN, are regulated, must follow the law, and actively combat fraud and crime on their networks. They keep records and turn records over to law enforcement and many criminals have been caught because they used these networks. >are all happy to transact in USD. Where we have laws and regulations, flagging, bank reporting, and entire law enforcement divisions dedicated to tracking financial crime, combating it, and bringing lawsuit against those who do it. Almost every major criminal who chose to use USD got caught because of that choice. Unlike Bitcoin, which is unregulated, unmonitored, with no ability to flag suspicious transactions, and no ability to ban bad actors. >Every issue you have with bitcoin exists with other currencies and mediums if exchange. This is extremely false. Major networks all obey law and regulation, assist law enforcement actively, track and report suspicious uses, and are vital in combating sex trafficking, drug trafficking and terrorism. I'm frankly shocked at the illogical nature of your reply, to false equivocate between a fully deregulated currency that has no law enforcement whatsoever, with one of the most regulated and monitored currencies in the world -- it's breathtaking. To prove how illogical and ridiculous you are being, I will ask you one question: If you want to buy $15,000 worth of heroin from a dark net drug distributor, would you do it in bitcoin, or a USD wire transfer? Your answer to this question should help you realize the ridiculously fallacious nature of your reply to me. >If these are genuine concerns of your you should focus on another method of preventing them. We successfully combat these things in USD, Visa, etc. We cannot combat them BY DESIGN in bitcoin. For you to suggest that we abandon the only mediums where we can track and stop criminals and switch to a medium where criminals are largely untrackable and operate freely without fear, it's beyond illogical, it's downright insane. "Someone got murdered once, that proves the police are 100% ineffective and we should switch to a society without police!"
  - celticninja 7y ago
    >A lot less than you think. Citation please. >If you want to buy $15,000 worth of heroin from a dark net drug distributor, would you do it in bitcoin, or a USD wire transfer? Sure, you use bitcoin because thats what online distributors accept. But you answer me this, if I want to buy 50kg of cocaine or heroin, am I paying the Mexican Cartels/Afghan warlords/Colombian cartels USD or BTC? >We successfully combat these things in USD, Visa, et If we could successfully combat these with VISA would carding still be a thing? Would identity theft be a thing? 1bn was stolen from Moldovan banks by bank transfer and they still couldn't get the money back. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldovan_bank_fraud_scandal https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldovan_bank_fraud_scandal So it's hardly like any of these are a secure medium, sure there are laws that can be used to prosecute offenders, same ones that can be used for crimes involving bitcoin. Bitcoin is also trackable/traceable with the right resources BY DESIGN (not sure why that matter but it matters to you). Also I think it was the SEC who said that cash was the preferred option for criminals, with bitcoin being a very small area for money laundering or other criminal activities. There is a lot of hyperbole in your comment (breathtaking, insane, illogical) and a significant misunderstanding of bitcoin. Perhaps don't act so superior when you don't know everything.
jkepler 7y ago
Plus, haven't governments massacred millions of people? If you're concerned to protect human rights from evil, look no further than the 20th centuries wars, pogroms, and political cleansings. How did all these governments fund all that evil: typically by abandoning sound money and massively inflating their currencies.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- hef19898 7y ago
  Nor necessarily. The German hyper inflation happened in the 20s as a direct result of the financial crash in the US and had nothing to do with a war. Same for Germany after WW2, during the war the currency held itself rather well, the collapse happened after the war. That countries usually overstretch their economies is something different from inflating money.
miracle2k 7y ago
As someone who's family is affected by the Iran sanctions regime I think that Bitcoin being useful to circumvent it is a rather wonderful thing.
- criley2 7y ago
  As someone who doesn't like it when Iran threatens to murder me and my people, I don't like that they hire terrorists to attack the world oil system while chanting death to me. Crazy, I know.
  - hef19898 7y ago
    Government =/= people affected by sanctions.
  - miracle2k 7y ago
    So the benefit of controllable finance systems is not that they eliminate violence and suffering, only that the powerful can decide who is to bear it.
fbisevil 7y ago
Ah yes, we must protect the world from the terrorists and pedophiles; think of the children! These are the same excuses used to justify mass surveillance, militarized police, the "need" of the government to control currency/finance, the war on terror, searches of technology and social media at the border, the war on drugs, and countless other authoritarian nonsense
ClumsyPilot 7y ago
Of all things in the world, you talk about vaping products? Do Mexican cartels accept bitcoin? Do black market arms dealers? Prostitution, modern slavery? Bitcoin increased a thousand times in value, and it made no material difference to circulation of illegal goods. You can't even buy weed from local dealers with it.
- slowhand09 7y ago
  One reason (IMHO) for your last statement is people in general (A) don't understand crytocoin/blockchain blah-blah, and (B) if they attempt to buy some they discover an ATM charges them 10-20% to convert $ to BTC.
  - zirs3d 7y ago
    Adoption will be swift, and then ton might just make it