5 ms·

> learned not to be bothered by it Have you ever been forced to use a women's bathroom because of your, probably fabulous, hair?

by mnsc 7y ago

wazoox 7y ago
I wouldn't anyway because I know precisely why there are separate bathrooms for men and women: because men usually pee on the seat. In the case I would have to pee in women's toilet, I would sit down (because what you actually do is eventually respect, not your herd signalling, or empty words). On the other hand, how many different toilets should there be in your world? Should non transgender women be allowed in women's toilets? That has been an actual question and an actual problem to solve in the world of infinitely exploded communities of precious snowflakes (in the very same order of absurdity, should veiled white women allowed in "coloured women only" meetings? what about transgender black women?). As food for thought, if you believe that, as a white cis male, I'm a born oppressor, I've also been actually harassed, publicly humiliated, attacked and beaten for being "a fag" (you know, long blond hair), because homophobes don't really care about who you actually are, and also beaten for defending women harassed on the street (because machos/sexists are also generally violent). In the global competition for victimhood, nobody can win. Who knows what humiliations RMS was subjected to for being ugly, fat, an asocial geek, etc. Maybe he used the power he has in some sets and circumstances in despicable ways. But so do the students at Evergreen, because that's just what human beings do. Being an aggressor or a victim is mostly circumstantial for most people.
- mnsc 7y ago
  > I've also been actually harassed, publicly humiliated, attacked and beaten for being "a fag" Do you think that the person who looked at you and proceeded to call you a fag showed you respect?
  - wazoox 7y ago
    Certainly not, but if had it been only this, I would hardly remember it, you know. Being insulted isn't the same thing as being harassed which is different from being beaten and is different from being raped, then all of this is also different when it's one-on-one and when it's done publicly: being insulted, spit on and beaten to the ground in front of many people isn't the same, either. Circumstances, again.
    - mnsc 7y ago
      Yes of course context and circumstance matters but my point is that this "respect" thing that we are talking about requires a bit of empathy. And now that we have established that you have been clearly disrespected maybe you can go to your feelings that came when that happened, anger, fear, sadness I don't know and then imagine that the person you refer to by a pronoun that they don't relate to feel those feelings, even though you think that they shouldn't feel that way. Wouldn't it be respectful of you honor their wishes despite your opinion that this is a "very dangerous and toxic ideology" and an "overarching extension of individualism" (did you mean overreaching though?). Or do you just say "Fuck their feelings, I've been through worse, they should be glad it's 'only this'"?
      - wazoox 7y ago
        Intentions matter. When someone calls me "madam", I know this bears generally no bad intent. Therefore I don't make any fuss about it. I've worked for a doctor doing sex change treatments, a long time ago. I've seen people that suffered incredibly. Some of them looked like caricatures, but that was certainly not funny. I took, naturally, great care in calling them "sir" or "madam" as they expected (and it sometimes required actual effort, and it was poignant and upsetting just thinking of the looks these persons must have received back outdoors). However I don't feel like wanting to be called some very special pronoun that nobody ever heard of because you're oh so special falls into the same category. I don't feel that people wanting to be in their own very special niche class of genre, race or whatever category is sane, good and healthy, or some form of progress. Happiness isn't finding some form of very individualistic achievement.
        mnsc 7y ago
        > I don't feel that people wanting to be in their own very special niche class of genre, race or whatever category is sane, good and healthy, or some form of progress. Happiness isn't finding some form of very individualistic achievement. 1) That's not a feeling, that's an opinion. 2) And really? Do you think you have the answer to how people should find "happiness". Then you should write one more book on the subject and become another self help millionaire. You seem appropriately sure of yourself so, go nuts!
- magduf 7y ago
  >I wouldn't anyway because I know precisely why there are separate bathrooms for men and women: because men usually pee on the seat. Do you realize there are some places where they don't have separate bathrooms, and men and women both go into the same restroom? In a civilized society, men who pee on the seat accidentally would clean it up before leaving the stall. Of course, this wouldn't work too well in America, where people are too selfish to bother cleaning up after themselves, and where they have ridiculous gaps in the partitions between stalls with very little privacy. In more civilized nations, the restrooms have far more privacy and people clean up after themselves.

> learned not to be bothered by it Have you ever been forced to use a women's bathroom because of your, probably fabulous, hair?

by mnsc 7y ago

> learned not to be bothered by it Have you ever been forced to use a women's bathroom because of your, probably fabulous, hair?

wazoox 7y ago

I wouldn't anyway because I know precisely why there are separate bathrooms for men and women: because men usually pee on the seat. In the case I would have to pee in women's toilet, I would sit down (because what you actually do is eventually respect, not your herd signalling, or empty words). On the other hand, how many different toilets should there be in your world? Should non transgender women be allowed in women's toilets? That has been an actual question and an actual problem to solve in the world of infinitely exploded communities of precious snowflakes (in the very same order of absurdity, should veiled white women allowed in "coloured women only" meetings? what about transgender black women?). As food for thought, if you believe that, as a white cis male, I'm a born oppressor, I've also been actually harassed, publicly humiliated, attacked and beaten for being "a fag" (you know, long blond hair), because homophobes don't really care about who you actually are, and also beaten for defending women harassed on the street (because machos/sexists are also generally violent). In the global competition for victimhood, nobody can win. Who knows what humiliations RMS was subjected to for being ugly, fat, an asocial geek, etc. Maybe he used the power he has in some sets and circumstances in despicable ways. But so do the students at Evergreen, because that's just what human beings do. Being an aggressor or a victim is mostly circumstantial for most people.

mnsc 7y ago
> I've also been actually harassed, publicly humiliated, attacked and beaten for being "a fag" Do you think that the person who looked at you and proceeded to call you a fag showed you respect?
- wazoox 7y ago
  Certainly not, but if had it been only this, I would hardly remember it, you know. Being insulted isn't the same thing as being harassed which is different from being beaten and is different from being raped, then all of this is also different when it's one-on-one and when it's done publicly: being insulted, spit on and beaten to the ground in front of many people isn't the same, either. Circumstances, again.
  - mnsc 7y ago
    Yes of course context and circumstance matters but my point is that this "respect" thing that we are talking about requires a bit of empathy. And now that we have established that you have been clearly disrespected maybe you can go to your feelings that came when that happened, anger, fear, sadness I don't know and then imagine that the person you refer to by a pronoun that they don't relate to feel those feelings, even though you think that they shouldn't feel that way. Wouldn't it be respectful of you honor their wishes despite your opinion that this is a "very dangerous and toxic ideology" and an "overarching extension of individualism" (did you mean overreaching though?). Or do you just say "Fuck their feelings, I've been through worse, they should be glad it's 'only this'"?
    - wazoox 7y ago
      Intentions matter. When someone calls me "madam", I know this bears generally no bad intent. Therefore I don't make any fuss about it. I've worked for a doctor doing sex change treatments, a long time ago. I've seen people that suffered incredibly. Some of them looked like caricatures, but that was certainly not funny. I took, naturally, great care in calling them "sir" or "madam" as they expected (and it sometimes required actual effort, and it was poignant and upsetting just thinking of the looks these persons must have received back outdoors). However I don't feel like wanting to be called some very special pronoun that nobody ever heard of because you're oh so special falls into the same category. I don't feel that people wanting to be in their own very special niche class of genre, race or whatever category is sane, good and healthy, or some form of progress. Happiness isn't finding some form of very individualistic achievement.
      - mnsc 7y ago
        > I don't feel that people wanting to be in their own very special niche class of genre, race or whatever category is sane, good and healthy, or some form of progress. Happiness isn't finding some form of very individualistic achievement. 1) That's not a feeling, that's an opinion. 2) And really? Do you think you have the answer to how people should find "happiness". Then you should write one more book on the subject and become another self help millionaire. You seem appropriately sure of yourself so, go nuts!
magduf 7y ago
>I wouldn't anyway because I know precisely why there are separate bathrooms for men and women: because men usually pee on the seat. Do you realize there are some places where they don't have separate bathrooms, and men and women both go into the same restroom? In a civilized society, men who pee on the seat accidentally would clean it up before leaving the stall. Of course, this wouldn't work too well in America, where people are too selfish to bother cleaning up after themselves, and where they have ridiculous gaps in the partitions between stalls with very little privacy. In more civilized nations, the restrooms have far more privacy and people clean up after themselves.