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I am so over goal-less MMOs with simplistic pastel graphics. We've done this so many times before. How is Horizon any different from Second Life? It's really un

by frisco 7y ago

I am so over goal-less MMOs with simplistic pastel graphics. We've done this so many times before. How is Horizon any different from Second Life? It's really unclear. Both are ugly. I am a huge fan of the idea of the Matrix, and I don't even think it needs to be gamified to be fun, but the graphics are such a big part of the appeal of VR for me. I would pay a lot of money just for a photorealistic VR house with a beautiful view out the windows and in-world access to my computer - a better place to hack than my usual Starbucks. Why can't we have something like the Unreal tech demos? It's clear that beautiful worlds are possible now: https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/20/18273832/epic-unreal-engine-demo-troll-rebirth-ray-tracing-gdc-2019 https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/20/18273832/epic-unreal-engi... If a VR world that looked like the first video in that article existed, it would be huge. But the intro video for Facebook Horizon? I am completely unsold.

p1esk 7y ago
We don’t even have powerful enough hardware for that, let alone software. Give it another 10 years.
- frisco 7y ago
  I don't think this is actually true; being close to some deep learning research groups, it's really surprising how powerful GPUs have gotten. Improvements over the last few years have been very nonlinear; it's kind of astonishing. And, internet latency has also gotten very good. I bet it's totally possible to make something like this now, though most people don't realize it yet!
  - MayeulC 7y ago
    Well, it certainly is technically possible. > it's really surprising how powerful GPUs have gotten. Improvements over the last few years have been very nonlinear These improvements did not come at fixed cost, though. Prices for top-of-the-line GPUs have been increasing (as well as die sizes, power consumption, and manufacturer margin). Together with Moore's law, that already brings nonlinear improvements, the available computation power has increased a lot. However, those GPUs are very expensive. Most people just can't afford them. And if few people can afford them, it's hard to justify paying a whole army of developers (like AAA game studios) to bring that kind of experiences.
  - p1esk 7y ago
    Do you see a lot of games that run well in 4k@120hz? VR is much more demanding. Maybe if you spend $20k on a box with 8 GPUs it will be able to run it. But it’s not just GPUs, you also need much better headsets (much higher refresh rates, 8k+ resolution, wide FOV, very good eye tracking for the foveated rendering, much higher dynamic range). Most importantly, creating all that photorealistic content is a huge effort, and you need a lot of it for VR. How much are you willing to pay for it?
    - BlueTemplar 7y ago
      Gameplay >> Graphics
      - Judgmentality 7y ago
        Tell that to the people who get nauseous from VR. There are some people that will get nauseous from VR no matter what, and then there are people of varying sensitivity. The higher refresh rate, lower latency, improved FOV, and improved optics will all help more people be able to experience VR at all. And it will allow everybody to experience it for longer periods of time more comfortably.
        BlueTemplar 7y ago
        I would have put that under "gameplay" (see "teleportation" vs "regular FPS" movement types), but I guess it's a bit of both...
  - gmueckl 7y ago
    Your parent post is true. This isn't about PC GPUs where the cooling hardware alone weighs almost as much as the entire standalone headset. These headsets are based on mobile phone hardware and need to deliver stereo rendering at 75 to 90Hz to make the user comfortable. Also, heat dissipation is a lot harder for a box strapped to a face that can't reach 50 to 60 degrees. You need to make lots of compromises for that.
  - argo_ 7y ago
    Run the game in the cloud, stream to the VR. The more you pay for cloud computing, the better your graphics. Why no company is doing that already?
    - ddnb 7y ago
      Google is, with Stadia
    - p1esk 7y ago
      Latency
- mnsc 7y ago
  I had that exact coffee break argument some years ago and have a slack reminder "play some VR" at 9:00 Sunday, December 7th, 2025. I might have to revise that.
  - p1esk 7y ago
    6 years from now? Maybe. It depends on Apple - if they release a VR headset by then, it might become an iPhone moment for VR. However it seems like they are focusing on AR, rather than VR, so who knows.
papa_bear 7y ago
They're possible now, but you also need expensive hardware to run them. This is meant to run on the oculus quest. Give it a few more years (and probably a few more) and portable ultrarealism will get here eventually.
- jquery 7y ago
  You don't need expensive hardware to do better than glossy pastels, at least for desktop gaming. I don't know what the requirements are for VR, but even turning modern games down to low/medium settings can still look pretty stunning if you haven't gamed in a while. This reminds me of higher-res Mii's from the Wii, which was dated tech even at the time. That said, the most important thing people should be asking is: is it fun? Because if you aren't gonna go super realistic then you had better nail the gameplay (Nintendo or Blizzard style).
  - puranjay 7y ago
    The Nintendo Switch is by no means powerful hardware. But Breath of the Wild looks beautiful on it because of the art style. I really don't think VR needs to wait half a decade for hardware to catch up. Existing systems can create beautiful experiences with the right artistic decisions
    - jquery 7y ago
      I 100% agree. I'd say Breath of the Wild looks incomparably better than this artstyle though. Something about this artstyle feels so... sterile? Maybe I'm just out of touch with what kids are playing these days, although as another commentator said, VR is counter-indicated for children.
  - dmix 7y ago
    What if it's targeted at kids/teens/young people and is lightweight "casual" playing experience? Wouldn't this look be preferred? Sometimes ultra-realism takes the fun nature out of things. Simpsons and South Park could easily use high tech graphics but the simple nature of it all is what makes it appealing . Same with Minecraft or even Zelda. It's also easy to build expansive worlds with breakable objects that don't require tons of physics and special effects to make something like a box exploding look realistic.
jodrellblank 7y ago
We've done this so many times before. Global birth rate is around 150,000 people per day. At Facebook scale that’s not one sucker born every minute but tens of thousands; millions of new Facebook users born every month. They never played second life or minecraft. “We” have done this, most humans haven’t.
- boomlinde 7y ago
  > Global birth rate is around 150,000 people per day. At Facebook scale that’s not one sucker born every minute but tens of thousands; millions of new Facebook users born every month. Yes, but how many of them are going to waste time playing pointless games like Horizon online? How many people that would play such a game haven't already? To say that there are a lot of Facebook users and that that naturally means a lot of players is strange given that VR headsets are still a luxury item and that Facebook Horizon doesn't essentially offer anything novel outside that. > They never played second life or minecraft. > "We" have done this, most humans haven't. Similarly, most humans haven't played Horizon, and there is as far as I'm concerned no compelling reason to believe that a lot of people will. Who would waste their time in that disgusting looking world and present themselves using a bland Wii-like avatar?
Kiro 7y ago
A comparison to Rec Room or VRChat would make much more sense and be way more fitting to support your argument.
- onion2k 7y ago
  That Facebook Horizon video is exactly how Linden Lab marketed Second Life.
  - neuronic 7y ago
    Going to be interesting how Facebook will handle the (legal) fringe and subvert creativity when it doesn't fit their business model. Any such VR world should be openly developed and not be provided by a corporation who can selectively put anything in there and inhibit anything going against company policies. This is Black Mirror waiting to happen.
  - thelittleone 7y ago
    I really enjoyed SL for a few years. At one point in some role play world that involved hunting or being hunted with bow and arrow or melee weapons. I had played plenty of other purpose build FPS but enjoyed that SL game more despite the crap graphics, laggy scripts, weapons, hacks etc. It felt more visceral. I never spent a cent inside of an FPS but probably spent a few thousand dollars in SL.
  - Kiro 7y ago
    Sure but the parent post was talking about the graphics. Second Life looked good when it launched but is so old that it looks outdated. It tried to look realistic while both Horizon and Rec Room goes with the Mii look. My point is that Rec Room is a better comparison since it uses the same graphics style, is way more popular/up-to-date and is also VR.
- glenneroo 7y ago
  Or why not compare it to SecondLife's foray into VR "Sansar"? I haven't tried in about 9 months but it's definitely an improvement from SL, albeit full of bugs.
fivre 7y ago
> How is Horizon any different from SecondLife? Probably less cybering, from the looks of it.
- Angostura 7y ago
  You think?
  - fivre 7y ago
    Well, if nothing else, they'll probably be a bit less... flexible in the avatars they let you use. This probably won't actually stop people.
    - melon_madness 7y ago
      Cybering always finds a way
james_s_tayler 7y ago
Agree. Instantly felt like "seen it before and it wasn't fun then, so it won't be fun now". But Dirt Rally on the other hand... That is a different story. VR is great when realism is the goal. Games in zero g environments are cool too.

by frisco 7y ago

p1esk 7y ago

We don’t even have powerful enough hardware for that, let alone software. Give it another 10 years.

frisco 7y ago
I don't think this is actually true; being close to some deep learning research groups, it's really surprising how powerful GPUs have gotten. Improvements over the last few years have been very nonlinear; it's kind of astonishing. And, internet latency has also gotten very good. I bet it's totally possible to make something like this now, though most people don't realize it yet!
- MayeulC 7y ago
  Well, it certainly is technically possible. > it's really surprising how powerful GPUs have gotten. Improvements over the last few years have been very nonlinear These improvements did not come at fixed cost, though. Prices for top-of-the-line GPUs have been increasing (as well as die sizes, power consumption, and manufacturer margin). Together with Moore's law, that already brings nonlinear improvements, the available computation power has increased a lot. However, those GPUs are very expensive. Most people just can't afford them. And if few people can afford them, it's hard to justify paying a whole army of developers (like AAA game studios) to bring that kind of experiences.
- p1esk 7y ago
  Do you see a lot of games that run well in 4k@120hz? VR is much more demanding. Maybe if you spend $20k on a box with 8 GPUs it will be able to run it. But it’s not just GPUs, you also need much better headsets (much higher refresh rates, 8k+ resolution, wide FOV, very good eye tracking for the foveated rendering, much higher dynamic range). Most importantly, creating all that photorealistic content is a huge effort, and you need a lot of it for VR. How much are you willing to pay for it?
  - BlueTemplar 7y ago
    Gameplay >> Graphics
    - Judgmentality 7y ago
      Tell that to the people who get nauseous from VR. There are some people that will get nauseous from VR no matter what, and then there are people of varying sensitivity. The higher refresh rate, lower latency, improved FOV, and improved optics will all help more people be able to experience VR at all. And it will allow everybody to experience it for longer periods of time more comfortably.
      - BlueTemplar 7y ago
        I would have put that under "gameplay" (see "teleportation" vs "regular FPS" movement types), but I guess it's a bit of both...
- gmueckl 7y ago
  Your parent post is true. This isn't about PC GPUs where the cooling hardware alone weighs almost as much as the entire standalone headset. These headsets are based on mobile phone hardware and need to deliver stereo rendering at 75 to 90Hz to make the user comfortable. Also, heat dissipation is a lot harder for a box strapped to a face that can't reach 50 to 60 degrees. You need to make lots of compromises for that.
- argo_ 7y ago
  Run the game in the cloud, stream to the VR. The more you pay for cloud computing, the better your graphics. Why no company is doing that already?
  - ddnb 7y ago
    Google is, with Stadia
  - p1esk 7y ago
    Latency
mnsc 7y ago
I had that exact coffee break argument some years ago and have a slack reminder "play some VR" at 9:00 Sunday, December 7th, 2025. I might have to revise that.
- p1esk 7y ago
  6 years from now? Maybe. It depends on Apple - if they release a VR headset by then, it might become an iPhone moment for VR. However it seems like they are focusing on AR, rather than VR, so who knows.

papa_bear 7y ago

They're possible now, but you also need expensive hardware to run them. This is meant to run on the oculus quest. Give it a few more years (and probably a few more) and portable ultrarealism will get here eventually.

jquery 7y ago
You don't need expensive hardware to do better than glossy pastels, at least for desktop gaming. I don't know what the requirements are for VR, but even turning modern games down to low/medium settings can still look pretty stunning if you haven't gamed in a while. This reminds me of higher-res Mii's from the Wii, which was dated tech even at the time. That said, the most important thing people should be asking is: is it fun? Because if you aren't gonna go super realistic then you had better nail the gameplay (Nintendo or Blizzard style).
- puranjay 7y ago
  The Nintendo Switch is by no means powerful hardware. But Breath of the Wild looks beautiful on it because of the art style. I really don't think VR needs to wait half a decade for hardware to catch up. Existing systems can create beautiful experiences with the right artistic decisions
  - jquery 7y ago
    I 100% agree. I'd say Breath of the Wild looks incomparably better than this artstyle though. Something about this artstyle feels so... sterile? Maybe I'm just out of touch with what kids are playing these days, although as another commentator said, VR is counter-indicated for children.
- dmix 7y ago
  What if it's targeted at kids/teens/young people and is lightweight "casual" playing experience? Wouldn't this look be preferred? Sometimes ultra-realism takes the fun nature out of things. Simpsons and South Park could easily use high tech graphics but the simple nature of it all is what makes it appealing . Same with Minecraft or even Zelda. It's also easy to build expansive worlds with breakable objects that don't require tons of physics and special effects to make something like a box exploding look realistic.

jodrellblank 7y ago

We've done this so many times before. Global birth rate is around 150,000 people per day. At Facebook scale that’s not one sucker born every minute but tens of thousands; millions of new Facebook users born every month. They never played second life or minecraft. “We” have done this, most humans haven’t.

boomlinde 7y ago
> Global birth rate is around 150,000 people per day. At Facebook scale that’s not one sucker born every minute but tens of thousands; millions of new Facebook users born every month. Yes, but how many of them are going to waste time playing pointless games like Horizon online? How many people that would play such a game haven't already? To say that there are a lot of Facebook users and that that naturally means a lot of players is strange given that VR headsets are still a luxury item and that Facebook Horizon doesn't essentially offer anything novel outside that. > They never played second life or minecraft. > "We" have done this, most humans haven't. Similarly, most humans haven't played Horizon, and there is as far as I'm concerned no compelling reason to believe that a lot of people will. Who would waste their time in that disgusting looking world and present themselves using a bland Wii-like avatar?

Kiro 7y ago

A comparison to Rec Room or VRChat would make much more sense and be way more fitting to support your argument.

onion2k 7y ago
That Facebook Horizon video is exactly how Linden Lab marketed Second Life.
- neuronic 7y ago
  Going to be interesting how Facebook will handle the (legal) fringe and subvert creativity when it doesn't fit their business model. Any such VR world should be openly developed and not be provided by a corporation who can selectively put anything in there and inhibit anything going against company policies. This is Black Mirror waiting to happen.
- thelittleone 7y ago
  I really enjoyed SL for a few years. At one point in some role play world that involved hunting or being hunted with bow and arrow or melee weapons. I had played plenty of other purpose build FPS but enjoyed that SL game more despite the crap graphics, laggy scripts, weapons, hacks etc. It felt more visceral. I never spent a cent inside of an FPS but probably spent a few thousand dollars in SL.
- Kiro 7y ago
  Sure but the parent post was talking about the graphics. Second Life looked good when it launched but is so old that it looks outdated. It tried to look realistic while both Horizon and Rec Room goes with the Mii look. My point is that Rec Room is a better comparison since it uses the same graphics style, is way more popular/up-to-date and is also VR.
glenneroo 7y ago
Or why not compare it to SecondLife's foray into VR "Sansar"? I haven't tried in about 9 months but it's definitely an improvement from SL, albeit full of bugs.

fivre 7y ago

> How is Horizon any different from SecondLife? Probably less cybering, from the looks of it.

Angostura 7y ago
You think?
- fivre 7y ago
  Well, if nothing else, they'll probably be a bit less... flexible in the avatars they let you use. This probably won't actually stop people.
  - melon_madness 7y ago
    Cybering always finds a way

james_s_tayler 7y ago

Agree. Instantly felt like "seen it before and it wasn't fun then, so it won't be fun now". But Dirt Rally on the other hand... That is a different story. VR is great when realism is the goal. Games in zero g environments are cool too.