4 ms·

I haven't decided yet how to feel about Stuxnet. On one hand, good guys don't release viruses into the wild, period. On the other hand, only good has come from

I haven't decided yet how to feel about Stuxnet. On one hand, good guys don't release viruses into the wild, period. On the other hand, only good has come from this. Iran doesn't get nukes until later and industry figures out that they need to lock down their machine controllers, without any real damage.

atomical 16y ago
Aren't people worried Iran could potentially develop something similar to target oil rigs? Is there a guy at the CIA saying, "Oh don't worry about it boys; it's a one off, they'll never be able to figure it out or respond in kind." At one point Persians were one of the most educated minorities in the US. They have good universities in Iran and I wouldn't put it past them to develop the capabilities to push back against this attack.
- adlep 16y ago
  Starting a precedence like that is never a good idea, although it looks like the US and Israel had very little choice - as the only option to stop the Iran's nuke program is an all out war. So I guess, a very sophisticated but non deadly cyberwar is a better alternative to a conventional war or strike.
- extension 16y ago
  If Iran is going to do, or is already doing, cyberwarfare then they'll do it whether or not they get attacked first. But now, everyone will be on guard. I think for the most part, Stuxnet will be a one of a kind event in history. Though it's a nasty thing to do, only one team ever gets to do it, and I'd rather it be us than them.
  - MichaelSalib 16y ago
    If Iran is going to do, or is already doing, cyberwarfare then they'll do it whether or not they get attacked first. Why? Is that because you assume that Iranians are irrational and evil? Usually people do stuff because it benefits them somehow. So, why exactly would Iran launch a cyberwarfare attack against the US in a world where the US didn't strike first? But now, everyone will be on guard. Given how completely we've failed at building secure systems, I'm not sure that really helps.
    - ecuzzillo 16y ago
      Iran's top people have been established to desire the destruction of Israel at minimum, and they can't fathom the destruction of the US, but if they could, I'm pretty sure they would want that too. So, at minimum, they would want to do shit like this to Israel if they remotely had the capability. My impression is that they don't have remotely the brain-capital to do so.
    - jhamburger 16y ago
      'Rational' and 'personal gain' are kind of relative to your worldview. The people running Iran believe that if they launch a missile into Tel Aviv, the worst thing that can happen is they get sent to paradise for eternity and Allah is waiting to give them a high-five for wiping Israel off the map. Is it still 'irrational' for them to do so?
      - MichaelSalib 16y ago
        The people running Iran believe that if they launch a missile into Tel Aviv, the worst thing that can happen is they get sent to paradise for eternity and Allah is waiting to give them a high-five for wiping Israel off the map. Do you have a cite proving this claim?
        jhamburger 16y ago
        I'm not sure what part of what I said is even debatable. Do you not think they believe God supports their mission to destroy Israel?
        JanezStupar 16y ago
        You are watching Fox too much.
        maayank 16y ago
        Ahmadinejad (Iranian president): “Is there a craft more beautiful... than the craft of giving yourself to martyrdom and becoming holy?...” "What is important is that they have shown the way to martyrdom which we must follow." http://www.realite-eu.org/site/apps/nl/content3.asp?c=9dJBLLNkGiF&b=2315291&ct=4058419 http://www.realite-eu.org/site/apps/nl/content3.asp?c=9dJBLL...
- forensic 16y ago
  All the educated Persians I know hate the crap out of the Iranian government and are happy about Stuxnet
  - klbarry 16y ago
    Could this be confirmation bias, because only liberal iranians would talk to a Westerner?
    - mahmud 16y ago
      Or maybe sometimes people say things that are not entirely true.
    - atomical 16y ago
      I have met a lot of Iranians here who do not like the regime in Iran but I have little perspective on those in Iran. I had a Farsi teacher who said that those in rural areas were more loyal to the current regime than those in populated cities.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
MichaelSalib 16y ago
Iran doesn't get nukes until later So, we're not going to change the end-game, we're just going to piss of Iran....and you think that's good? Consider things from the Iranian's perspective. Back in the day, they were establishing a legitimate democratically elected government. The US overthrew that government and pushed a brutal dictator into power, who tortured and murdered many Iranians. From their perspective, the US is an evil nation that does evil things. Nuclear weapons look like the only thing that could give them security against the US. And we're hellbent on stopping them. Heck, the US has never even apologized for overthrowing their government and installing a murderous dictator: can you really blame the Iranians for believing that the US government is trying to screw with their country? The only way this ends well is with a deal and deals require trust. Does Stuxnet promote that trust? Or does Stuxnet just provide further evidence that the hardliners are right, that the US is trying to screw with their country? industry figures out that they need to lock down their machine controllers This seems like wishful thinking. We have a terrible track record of getting large scale systems secured, even in areas where those systems are under continuous public attack. Industrial software is not one of those areas, so developers of such software are unlikely to take security very seriously. But even if they did: we don't know how to get them to build secure systems. Microsoft spends a huge amount of developer time and money on system security. They're not very successful. But they devote a much larger fraction of their budget to that goal than any industrial software shop. So expecting industrial software shops to produce code that is even as secure as Microsoft's seems...unlikely.
- extension 16y ago
  So, we're not going to change the end-game, we're just going to piss of Iran....and you think that's good? All I want is for nobody to get nuked. I think it's more likely that nobody will get nuked if Iran doesn't have nukes. But you're right that Stuxnet is a dirty move that erodes trust, that's why I'm conflicted. We have a terrible track record of getting large scale systems secured, even in areas where those systems are under continuous public attack. Industrial software is not one of those areas, so developers of such software are unlikely to take security very seriously. Surely going from complete obliviousness to awareness is the biggest step the industry will ever take to being secure, even if subsequent progress is slow. But I think they will fare better than corporate or home users, because there are less of them and they are more technically inclined and disciplined.
bueller 16y ago
i guess you haven't seen Hackers
rdouble 16y ago
good guys don't release viruses into the wild, period. Didn't one of the guys from Y Combinator once release a virus into the wild?
- edanm 16y ago
  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_worm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_worm It was an accident, though.
  - forensic 16y ago
    >It was an accident, though. Does anyone really believe this?
    - dedward 16y ago
      Yes - they do actually.
rdtsc 16y ago
> On the other hand, only good has come from this Are you completely sure of that?

atomical 16y ago

Aren't people worried Iran could potentially develop something similar to target oil rigs? Is there a guy at the CIA saying, "Oh don't worry about it boys; it's a one off, they'll never be able to figure it out or respond in kind." At one point Persians were one of the most educated minorities in the US. They have good universities in Iran and I wouldn't put it past them to develop the capabilities to push back against this attack.

adlep 16y ago
Starting a precedence like that is never a good idea, although it looks like the US and Israel had very little choice - as the only option to stop the Iran's nuke program is an all out war. So I guess, a very sophisticated but non deadly cyberwar is a better alternative to a conventional war or strike.
extension 16y ago
If Iran is going to do, or is already doing, cyberwarfare then they'll do it whether or not they get attacked first. But now, everyone will be on guard. I think for the most part, Stuxnet will be a one of a kind event in history. Though it's a nasty thing to do, only one team ever gets to do it, and I'd rather it be us than them.
- MichaelSalib 16y ago
  If Iran is going to do, or is already doing, cyberwarfare then they'll do it whether or not they get attacked first. Why? Is that because you assume that Iranians are irrational and evil? Usually people do stuff because it benefits them somehow. So, why exactly would Iran launch a cyberwarfare attack against the US in a world where the US didn't strike first? But now, everyone will be on guard. Given how completely we've failed at building secure systems, I'm not sure that really helps.
  - ecuzzillo 16y ago
    Iran's top people have been established to desire the destruction of Israel at minimum, and they can't fathom the destruction of the US, but if they could, I'm pretty sure they would want that too. So, at minimum, they would want to do shit like this to Israel if they remotely had the capability. My impression is that they don't have remotely the brain-capital to do so.
  - jhamburger 16y ago
    'Rational' and 'personal gain' are kind of relative to your worldview. The people running Iran believe that if they launch a missile into Tel Aviv, the worst thing that can happen is they get sent to paradise for eternity and Allah is waiting to give them a high-five for wiping Israel off the map. Is it still 'irrational' for them to do so?
    - MichaelSalib 16y ago
      The people running Iran believe that if they launch a missile into Tel Aviv, the worst thing that can happen is they get sent to paradise for eternity and Allah is waiting to give them a high-five for wiping Israel off the map. Do you have a cite proving this claim?
      - jhamburger 16y ago
        I'm not sure what part of what I said is even debatable. Do you not think they believe God supports their mission to destroy Israel?
        JanezStupar 16y ago
        You are watching Fox too much.
        maayank 16y ago
        Ahmadinejad (Iranian president): “Is there a craft more beautiful... than the craft of giving yourself to martyrdom and becoming holy?...” "What is important is that they have shown the way to martyrdom which we must follow." http://www.realite-eu.org/site/apps/nl/content3.asp?c=9dJBLLNkGiF&b=2315291&ct=4058419 http://www.realite-eu.org/site/apps/nl/content3.asp?c=9dJBLL...
forensic 16y ago
All the educated Persians I know hate the crap out of the Iranian government and are happy about Stuxnet
- klbarry 16y ago
  Could this be confirmation bias, because only liberal iranians would talk to a Westerner?
  - mahmud 16y ago
    Or maybe sometimes people say things that are not entirely true.
  - atomical 16y ago
    I have met a lot of Iranians here who do not like the regime in Iran but I have little perspective on those in Iran. I had a Farsi teacher who said that those in rural areas were more loyal to the current regime than those in populated cities.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]

MichaelSalib 16y ago

Iran doesn't get nukes until later So, we're not going to change the end-game, we're just going to piss of Iran....and you think that's good? Consider things from the Iranian's perspective. Back in the day, they were establishing a legitimate democratically elected government. The US overthrew that government and pushed a brutal dictator into power, who tortured and murdered many Iranians. From their perspective, the US is an evil nation that does evil things. Nuclear weapons look like the only thing that could give them security against the US. And we're hellbent on stopping them. Heck, the US has never even apologized for overthrowing their government and installing a murderous dictator: can you really blame the Iranians for believing that the US government is trying to screw with their country? The only way this ends well is with a deal and deals require trust. Does Stuxnet promote that trust? Or does Stuxnet just provide further evidence that the hardliners are right, that the US is trying to screw with their country? industry figures out that they need to lock down their machine controllers This seems like wishful thinking. We have a terrible track record of getting large scale systems secured, even in areas where those systems are under continuous public attack. Industrial software is not one of those areas, so developers of such software are unlikely to take security very seriously. But even if they did: we don't know how to get them to build secure systems. Microsoft spends a huge amount of developer time and money on system security. They're not very successful. But they devote a much larger fraction of their budget to that goal than any industrial software shop. So expecting industrial software shops to produce code that is even as secure as Microsoft's seems...unlikely.

extension 16y ago
So, we're not going to change the end-game, we're just going to piss of Iran....and you think that's good? All I want is for nobody to get nuked. I think it's more likely that nobody will get nuked if Iran doesn't have nukes. But you're right that Stuxnet is a dirty move that erodes trust, that's why I'm conflicted. We have a terrible track record of getting large scale systems secured, even in areas where those systems are under continuous public attack. Industrial software is not one of those areas, so developers of such software are unlikely to take security very seriously. Surely going from complete obliviousness to awareness is the biggest step the industry will ever take to being secure, even if subsequent progress is slow. But I think they will fare better than corporate or home users, because there are less of them and they are more technically inclined and disciplined.

bueller 16y ago

i guess you haven't seen Hackers

rdouble 16y ago

good guys don't release viruses into the wild, period. Didn't one of the guys from Y Combinator once release a virus into the wild?

edanm 16y ago
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_worm http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_worm It was an accident, though.
- forensic 16y ago
  >It was an accident, though. Does anyone really believe this?
  - dedward 16y ago
    Yes - they do actually.

rdtsc 16y ago

> On the other hand, only good has come from this Are you completely sure of that?