4 ms·

Traffic rules don't just magically go away just because you enter a parking lot. edit: the parent comment edited his comment to include "no right way", which I

Traffic rules don't just magically go away just because you enter a parking lot. edit: the parent comment edited his comment to include "no right way", which I'd like to address: it is very common (at least in every America city I've ever been to) for parking lots to have lanes that are very clearly marked for only one-way travel. These lanes, like the one shown in the video, are typically only wide enough for one car, and if someone is going the wrong way down one, there's a good chance they'll cause a traffic jam if they encounter someone who is going the right way. Sure, since it's in a parking lot you might not get a ticket from a police officer. But these rules and established traffic flows still exist for a reason, and if Smart Summon disregards them, it has the potential to cause some incredibly inconvenient situations for both the Tesla owner and anyone else involved.

smileysteve 7y ago
Legally, they kind of do.
- teachrdan 7y ago
  Try parking in a handicapped spot and see what happens; some laws clearly do apply in a parking lot.
  - slg 7y ago
    If we are going to be pedantic about this, and you pretty much have to be given the topic, a parking violation is not considered a traffic violation. Obviously a private parking lot isn't some completely lawless place, but many (most?) traffic laws don't apply there.
    - vageli 7y ago
      > If we are going to be pedantic about this, and you pretty much have to be given the topic, a parking violation is not considered a traffic violation. Obviously a private parking lot isn't some completely lawless place, but many (most?) traffic laws don't apply there. So you can drive like 50 mph or do donuts, violate crosswalks with pedestrians in them, etc? Does your jurisdiction have no laws on reckless driving, exhibition of motor, etc? Sure the stop sign might not be the legal height required by your roadway authority but see if that stops a cop from citing you if you blow through it without observing traffic (aka drive recklessly). Hell, I know people who have received seat belt tickets while operating a motor vehicle in a parking lot.
      - slg 7y ago
        I don't know what to tell you. You are free to Google it and see that it is pretty universal that many traffic laws don't apply in private parking lots (it obviously depends on jurisdiction). That doesn't mean you can't be ticketed for driving recklessly or endangering/injuring people, it just means it is fundamentally legally different than driving on a freeway.
        vageli 7y ago
        While the letter of many specific traffic laws may not be applicable, it does seem that the intent gets through, based on my googling of traffic law application in parking lots and structures.
        slg 7y ago
        When dealing with the law, it is the letter that matters. To repeat my first comment, it isn't like parking lots are lawless, but the it is a fundamentally different legal environment in which many traffic laws don't apply.
      - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
        >Hell, I know people who have received seat belt tickets while operating a motor vehicle in a parking lot. The cops can cite you for anything anywhere anytime. It's on you to call them out for bullshit.
        vageli 7y ago
        Can you legally operate a motor vehicle while drunk on private property? People have gotten DUIs for being drunk and asleep with the car in their driveways. I don't think it has to do with calling out bullshit. Though likely some laws are about operating a motor vehicle in general and others are around operation in a roadway.
- prongletown 7y ago
  Not true. Depending on the state, many laws still apply, including: - Accessible Parking - Unlicensed driving (for example, shared private spaces such as parking lots) - Drunk driving
  - stale2002 7y ago
    Some stay around. Others don't. So your statement does not invalidate the original point.
    - prongletown 7y ago
      My comment is based on my interpretation of the original point. But I feel like you're pointlessly nitpicking, which is against the hn rules, so please read those.
      - stale2002 7y ago
        No, the main thrust of the original point is that Tesla's actions may not be illegal, because some laws don't apply. And my comment addresses that. Instead, it would be nit picking to say "well, actually, some laws do apply, and since you said all laws accidentally, that makes you wrong!". In reality, whatever actions the Tesla car in question did, might not be illegal because some laws might not apply. The original point, that maybe the Tesla car didn't do anything illegal, could be true.
        threeseed 7y ago
        Might want to look into this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reckless_driving https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reckless_driving If a Tesla car was driving around a parking lot in the wrong direction it definitely looks like some of those listed e.g. careless, reckless or improper driving would cover it. So yes there is a good case to be made that it's illegal.
- untog 7y ago
  Realistically, if you drive the wrong way down a one lane road in a parking lot there's a good chance you're going to get stuck because someone else will be driving the right way. It's not... good?
  - tidepod12 7y ago
    Exactly. It's not so much a legal thing (note the use of "rules" vs "laws" in my earlier comment) as much as it is a practical thing. If you're a Tesla owner, it's not going to be a good experience if using Smart Summon results in your car getting stuck in a one-way lane. If you're the driver of a car that ends up face-to-face with a driverless Tesla that is going the wrong way, it's also going to be a bad experience. And if the Tesla does somehow get in a collision, I think you would have a hard time coming up with an excuse to your insurance company as to why your car was going against established traffic flow.
  - rad_gruchalski 7y ago
    It probably gets legal when a collision happens. Also, when one gets a person who drives the wrong way, maybe one has a good chance to make them reverse. Good luck with a car without a driver.
- MaupitiBlue 7y ago
  Criminally / infractionally maybe depending on jurisdiction. But on the civil side, I don’t know of a jurisdiction that requires no duty of care. For example, if you rear-end someone in a lot, you’re probably going to be liable.
- emptybits 7y ago
  Depends on jurisdiction. In my province, our Motor Vehicle Act defines all its regular road rules as rules of the “highway” and it treats publicly accessible parking lots as highways. “"highway" includes ... every private place or passageway to which the public, for the purpose of the parking or servicing of vehicles, has access or is invited” Ref: http://www.bclaws.ca/civix/document/id/complete/statreg/96318_01#section1 http://www.bclaws.ca/civix/document/id/complete/statreg/9631...
- fortran77 7y ago
  Maybe not under "criminal" law (a cop won't stop you for it), but certainly under civil law. And if you ran over someone while ignoring signs even on private property (for example), it wouldn't help your criminal defense either.
- threeseed 7y ago
  In most places in the world they have a generic law used to cover behaviour that everyone knows is wrong but isn't explicitly illegal. For example in Australia we have a 'reckless driving' law which would definitely cover the case of you ignoring parking lot rules. Likewise if you had an incident I doubt your insurance company would honor the claim.
  - grecy 7y ago
    You'll find that 99% of parking lots are legally private property, and as such road rules DO NOT legally apply. Those stop signs IN a parking lot? They legally mean nothing. Police can not give you a ticket for not stopping.
    - saalweachter 7y ago
      The enforceability and enforcement of stop signs in parking lots varies state by state in the US.
- whenchamenia 7y ago
  In most states, any publicly accessable roadway is enforcable by highway codes. Google parking lot dui.
matz1 7y ago
>if someone is going the wrong way down one, there's a good chance they'll cause a traffic jam if they encounter someone who is going the right way True, but what if smart summon is smart enough to determine that it safe to go wrong way ?
- tidepod12 7y ago
  I don't see how that would be universally possible. Take the video, for example: at the time of the video, the Tesla seems fine to continue the wrong direction down the lane. Maybe it's somehow "determined that it is safe" (even though I doubt it does that). But if one of those parked cars in front of the Tesla had pulled out and tried to leave, they would then be face-to-face and both would be stuck. Even if I am a human driving the car, I can pretty easily look down the lane and see it is clear right now, but if I do decide to go down it, I'm pretty much just hoping that another driver doesn't show up and block me.
  - matz1 7y ago
    Of course nothing is perfect. I'm happy if it smart enough most of the time. But at very least its not hard to imagine situation where its safe to drive on a wrong way in a parking lot. For example an empty parking lot. Even when another car show up and block it, meh not a big deal, its unlikely that the car will hit the other car.

smileysteve 7y ago

Legally, they kind of do.

teachrdan 7y ago
Try parking in a handicapped spot and see what happens; some laws clearly do apply in a parking lot.
- slg 7y ago
  If we are going to be pedantic about this, and you pretty much have to be given the topic, a parking violation is not considered a traffic violation. Obviously a private parking lot isn't some completely lawless place, but many (most?) traffic laws don't apply there.
  - vageli 7y ago
    > If we are going to be pedantic about this, and you pretty much have to be given the topic, a parking violation is not considered a traffic violation. Obviously a private parking lot isn't some completely lawless place, but many (most?) traffic laws don't apply there. So you can drive like 50 mph or do donuts, violate crosswalks with pedestrians in them, etc? Does your jurisdiction have no laws on reckless driving, exhibition of motor, etc? Sure the stop sign might not be the legal height required by your roadway authority but see if that stops a cop from citing you if you blow through it without observing traffic (aka drive recklessly). Hell, I know people who have received seat belt tickets while operating a motor vehicle in a parking lot.
    - slg 7y ago
      I don't know what to tell you. You are free to Google it and see that it is pretty universal that many traffic laws don't apply in private parking lots (it obviously depends on jurisdiction). That doesn't mean you can't be ticketed for driving recklessly or endangering/injuring people, it just means it is fundamentally legally different than driving on a freeway.
      - vageli 7y ago
        While the letter of many specific traffic laws may not be applicable, it does seem that the intent gets through, based on my googling of traffic law application in parking lots and structures.
        slg 7y ago
        When dealing with the law, it is the letter that matters. To repeat my first comment, it isn't like parking lots are lawless, but the it is a fundamentally different legal environment in which many traffic laws don't apply.
    - dsfyu404ed 7y ago
      >Hell, I know people who have received seat belt tickets while operating a motor vehicle in a parking lot. The cops can cite you for anything anywhere anytime. It's on you to call them out for bullshit.
      - vageli 7y ago
        Can you legally operate a motor vehicle while drunk on private property? People have gotten DUIs for being drunk and asleep with the car in their driveways. I don't think it has to do with calling out bullshit. Though likely some laws are about operating a motor vehicle in general and others are around operation in a roadway.
prongletown 7y ago
Not true. Depending on the state, many laws still apply, including: - Accessible Parking - Unlicensed driving (for example, shared private spaces such as parking lots) - Drunk driving
- stale2002 7y ago
  Some stay around. Others don't. So your statement does not invalidate the original point.
  - prongletown 7y ago
    My comment is based on my interpretation of the original point. But I feel like you're pointlessly nitpicking, which is against the hn rules, so please read those.
    - stale2002 7y ago
      No, the main thrust of the original point is that Tesla's actions may not be illegal, because some laws don't apply. And my comment addresses that. Instead, it would be nit picking to say "well, actually, some laws do apply, and since you said all laws accidentally, that makes you wrong!". In reality, whatever actions the Tesla car in question did, might not be illegal because some laws might not apply. The original point, that maybe the Tesla car didn't do anything illegal, could be true.
      - threeseed 7y ago
        Might want to look into this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reckless_driving https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reckless_driving If a Tesla car was driving around a parking lot in the wrong direction it definitely looks like some of those listed e.g. careless, reckless or improper driving would cover it. So yes there is a good case to be made that it's illegal.
untog 7y ago
Realistically, if you drive the wrong way down a one lane road in a parking lot there's a good chance you're going to get stuck because someone else will be driving the right way. It's not... good?
- tidepod12 7y ago
  Exactly. It's not so much a legal thing (note the use of "rules" vs "laws" in my earlier comment) as much as it is a practical thing. If you're a Tesla owner, it's not going to be a good experience if using Smart Summon results in your car getting stuck in a one-way lane. If you're the driver of a car that ends up face-to-face with a driverless Tesla that is going the wrong way, it's also going to be a bad experience. And if the Tesla does somehow get in a collision, I think you would have a hard time coming up with an excuse to your insurance company as to why your car was going against established traffic flow.
- rad_gruchalski 7y ago
  It probably gets legal when a collision happens. Also, when one gets a person who drives the wrong way, maybe one has a good chance to make them reverse. Good luck with a car without a driver.
MaupitiBlue 7y ago
Criminally / infractionally maybe depending on jurisdiction. But on the civil side, I don’t know of a jurisdiction that requires no duty of care. For example, if you rear-end someone in a lot, you’re probably going to be liable.
emptybits 7y ago
Depends on jurisdiction. In my province, our Motor Vehicle Act defines all its regular road rules as rules of the “highway” and it treats publicly accessible parking lots as highways. “"highway" includes ... every private place or passageway to which the public, for the purpose of the parking or servicing of vehicles, has access or is invited” Ref: http://www.bclaws.ca/civix/document/id/complete/statreg/96318_01#section1 http://www.bclaws.ca/civix/document/id/complete/statreg/9631...
fortran77 7y ago
Maybe not under "criminal" law (a cop won't stop you for it), but certainly under civil law. And if you ran over someone while ignoring signs even on private property (for example), it wouldn't help your criminal defense either.
threeseed 7y ago
In most places in the world they have a generic law used to cover behaviour that everyone knows is wrong but isn't explicitly illegal. For example in Australia we have a 'reckless driving' law which would definitely cover the case of you ignoring parking lot rules. Likewise if you had an incident I doubt your insurance company would honor the claim.
- grecy 7y ago
  You'll find that 99% of parking lots are legally private property, and as such road rules DO NOT legally apply. Those stop signs IN a parking lot? They legally mean nothing. Police can not give you a ticket for not stopping.
  - saalweachter 7y ago
    The enforceability and enforcement of stop signs in parking lots varies state by state in the US.
whenchamenia 7y ago
In most states, any publicly accessable roadway is enforcable by highway codes. Google parking lot dui.

matz1 7y ago

>if someone is going the wrong way down one, there's a good chance they'll cause a traffic jam if they encounter someone who is going the right way True, but what if smart summon is smart enough to determine that it safe to go wrong way ?

tidepod12 7y ago
I don't see how that would be universally possible. Take the video, for example: at the time of the video, the Tesla seems fine to continue the wrong direction down the lane. Maybe it's somehow "determined that it is safe" (even though I doubt it does that). But if one of those parked cars in front of the Tesla had pulled out and tried to leave, they would then be face-to-face and both would be stuck. Even if I am a human driving the car, I can pretty easily look down the lane and see it is clear right now, but if I do decide to go down it, I'm pretty much just hoping that another driver doesn't show up and block me.
- matz1 7y ago
  Of course nothing is perfect. I'm happy if it smart enough most of the time. But at very least its not hard to imagine situation where its safe to drive on a wrong way in a parking lot. For example an empty parking lot. Even when another car show up and block it, meh not a big deal, its unlikely that the car will hit the other car.