4 ms·

Tribes, gangs, kingdoms, mafias, mobs, all the same thing. Centralized authority, including the power to end the life of another human inside or outside of you

Tribes, gangs, kingdoms, mafias, mobs, all the same thing. Centralized authority, including the power to end the life of another human inside or outside of your authority without consequence from within. What is the natural state of human kind? Is it war? At the very least, it's obedient service to your group. Groups are forming more along ideological boundaries now, rather than racial or ethnic (at least in the developed world).

lukifer 7y ago
There's no singular state of humankind, any more than there is a specific "goal" to evolution. But I think Haidt is right about human nature when he calls us "groupish" (or, "part ape, part beehive"). I'm philosophically individualist, yet even that value system can't escape tribalism entirely: in practice, we'll happily form tribes that value individualism to complete against outsider tribes that don't, with no trace of contradiction or irony. What we can strive for, and I think history has proven successful (or at least capable of being successful), is groups based on voluntary association and/or merit, and inter-group competition that is net-positive, or at least minimally destructive.
- linuxftw 7y ago
  What about voluntary disassociation? For instance, parts of California want to be independent states. Is that supportable?
  - BlueTemplar 7y ago
    Heh, right, one might think that in theory, they form the same package, but in practice, thermodynamics means that they don't...
  - lukifer 7y ago
    It's a good question. The very concept of social contract theory doesn't really jibe with a purely voluntarist ethic. If somehow, every single member of a polity wants to secede, it's hard to find anything wrong with that; while if 50%+1 want to, that seems unjust to the remaining ~49%. There are historical instances of peaceful, voluntary disassociation of democratic states; the "Velvet Divorce" between the Slovakia and the Czech Republic comes to mind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_Czechoslovakia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_Czechoslovakia But suffice to say, it's an open question what threshold of popular support justifies something on the order of California seceding the union. Voluntary association (and disassociation) is merely an ideal to strive for, and we will always fall short of that ideal in the real world.
gumby 7y ago
Perhaps you should stop smoking so much Hobbs and try some Rousseau.

lukifer 7y ago

There's no singular state of humankind, any more than there is a specific "goal" to evolution. But I think Haidt is right about human nature when he calls us "groupish" (or, "part ape, part beehive"). I'm philosophically individualist, yet even that value system can't escape tribalism entirely: in practice, we'll happily form tribes that value individualism to complete against outsider tribes that don't, with no trace of contradiction or irony. What we can strive for, and I think history has proven successful (or at least capable of being successful), is groups based on voluntary association and/or merit, and inter-group competition that is net-positive, or at least minimally destructive.

linuxftw 7y ago
What about voluntary disassociation? For instance, parts of California want to be independent states. Is that supportable?
- BlueTemplar 7y ago
  Heh, right, one might think that in theory, they form the same package, but in practice, thermodynamics means that they don't...
- lukifer 7y ago
  It's a good question. The very concept of social contract theory doesn't really jibe with a purely voluntarist ethic. If somehow, every single member of a polity wants to secede, it's hard to find anything wrong with that; while if 50%+1 want to, that seems unjust to the remaining ~49%. There are historical instances of peaceful, voluntary disassociation of democratic states; the "Velvet Divorce" between the Slovakia and the Czech Republic comes to mind: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_Czechoslovakia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dissolution_of_Czechoslovakia But suffice to say, it's an open question what threshold of popular support justifies something on the order of California seceding the union. Voluntary association (and disassociation) is merely an ideal to strive for, and we will always fall short of that ideal in the real world.

gumby 7y ago

Perhaps you should stop smoking so much Hobbs and try some Rousseau.