4 ms·

I feel so fortunate that I have never been desperate enough to even entertain the idea of working for 8+ hours, for free, as part of an interview process. Yike

I feel so fortunate that I have never been desperate enough to even entertain the idea of working for 8+ hours, for free, as part of an interview process. Yikes.

davinic 7y ago
I refuse to do so. The companies have no skin in the game and could easily be giving the same assignment to hundreds of people fighting for the job. I would entertain the idea later in the interview process, especially if there were some token payment to show that the potential employer is just as invested as I.
- sjf 7y ago
  They are paying their engineers to conduct interviews, write feedback, and sit on hiring committees. The hiring process is hardly free for them either.
  - graphememes 7y ago
    On average it costs around 10-15k to hire an engineer.
    - itronitron 7y ago
      how much does it cost to interview an engineer?
      - graphememes 7y ago
        > $2,000: the engineering team interviewed three candidates in-house before deciding to hire Jeanne. Each interview took about 7 hours (phone screens, in-house, debrief) for about 20 hours total. This is a rough estimate for the startup provided in this blog post, you can do this by taking the salaries, getting their assumed hourly rate, and then applying it to the amount spent interviewing. See https://blog.usejournal.com/it-costs-50k-to-hire-a-software-engineer-d06a0d051abf https://blog.usejournal.com/it-costs-50k-to-hire-a-software-...
    - ngneer 7y ago
      Citation?
      - graphememes 7y ago
        This one cites 50k, on average though, most startups, the HR decks are generally around 10-15k with in-house recruiters. https://blog.usejournal.com/it-costs-50k-to-hire-a-software-engineer-d06a0d051abf https://blog.usejournal.com/it-costs-50k-to-hire-a-software-...
pinewurst 7y ago
Not only that, but having my references checked before an actual interview. No way. I don't think even the NSA does that.
- mayop100 7y ago
  We did the phone screen and the take-home test and asked them to come in for the on-site interview before asking for references. So this was pretty late in the process.
maximente 7y ago
that means this filter is working as intended. from the article: > Please note that this post is intended to help with vetting of software engineering candidates at early-stage startups with significant technical complexity. candidates at early stage start ups need to sacrifice time, energy, and effort in a manner that's not based on hourly compensation for the company to hockey stick. it's critical to filter out people who aren't willing to do this. the proof is in the pudding: all the people volunteering time/effort, freely, to get better scores on the gold mine game... after they're hired. not to say those aren't redeeming qualities for talented software engineers. they're just using this curiosity/drive as a signal for "willing to work on cool stuff above and beyond normal salaried expectations, and not ask too many questions about how they will benefit". there's an obvious tie in to age here as well (younger people are less committed to external causes e.g. relationships, have weaker boundaries generally, more able to be starry eyed, etc.)
mattmar96 7y ago
It's not just the 8 hours though - It's the weeks on end of practice beforehand. And before someone says, "you should be sharp on your skills regardless of an upcoming interview", I challenge you to try a mock interview for a similar company.
- aliceryhl 7y ago
  You should be sharp on your skills regardless of an upcoming interview.
  - inertiatic 7y ago
    Why should you be "sharp" on things you can Google for in seconds?
commandlinefan 7y ago
I keep reading that there’s a huge shortage of competent software developers. Then I keep reading that employers are kicking applicants in the teeth over and over as many times as they can get away with. Something about this doesn’t quite fit.
- weka 7y ago
  Not to mention they are still asking for references. Big yikes, Firebase.
- mianos 7y ago
  The other thing that is often odd is they place an ad for a position and list very specific domain knowledge and they say 'before we will consider you, you need do this arbitrary four hour on line coding test'. Here in Sydney we have a couple of trading firms complaining they can't get staff. I often think now, being able to confidently do the job needed very well, is not a primary requirement. When I say well, I mean, well coded, well documented, good design, not just able to solve the algorithm at hand. Are we short of good programmers or do we have to many?
- wickedsickeune 7y ago
  You should notice who says there is a shortage: employers. And what they mean, is that they can't find enough people to hire, meaning that few people satisfy their hiring criteria. This does not mean that few people apply, it means that their hiring process eliminates almost anyone.
asfarley 7y ago
Yeah, I'll be sure to filter out any Firebase jobs after reading this article.
arandr0x 7y ago
I've once taken a 5-hour pre-interview test that actually took me from "eh why not" about the company to them being my first choice. My other offers were from companies that did not have at-home tests. I thought the particular at-home test was relevant to the job I would be doing, it (and the job) were in a language that I found during the test much more fun than the language I was working in at the time, and I found it in general a very appetizing job teaser. Although yeah, I spend my evenings with my partner, and I was working extra hours at my real job, and it was a test you had only a few days to complete, so I had to pull an all-nighter for it.

I feel so fortunate that I have never been desperate enough to even entertain the idea of working for 8+ hours, for free, as part of an interview process. Yikes.

davinic 7y ago

I refuse to do so. The companies have no skin in the game and could easily be giving the same assignment to hundreds of people fighting for the job. I would entertain the idea later in the interview process, especially if there were some token payment to show that the potential employer is just as invested as I.

sjf 7y ago
They are paying their engineers to conduct interviews, write feedback, and sit on hiring committees. The hiring process is hardly free for them either.
- graphememes 7y ago
  On average it costs around 10-15k to hire an engineer.
  - itronitron 7y ago
    how much does it cost to interview an engineer?
    - graphememes 7y ago
      > $2,000: the engineering team interviewed three candidates in-house before deciding to hire Jeanne. Each interview took about 7 hours (phone screens, in-house, debrief) for about 20 hours total. This is a rough estimate for the startup provided in this blog post, you can do this by taking the salaries, getting their assumed hourly rate, and then applying it to the amount spent interviewing. See https://blog.usejournal.com/it-costs-50k-to-hire-a-software-engineer-d06a0d051abf https://blog.usejournal.com/it-costs-50k-to-hire-a-software-...
  - ngneer 7y ago
    Citation?
    - graphememes 7y ago
      This one cites 50k, on average though, most startups, the HR decks are generally around 10-15k with in-house recruiters. https://blog.usejournal.com/it-costs-50k-to-hire-a-software-engineer-d06a0d051abf https://blog.usejournal.com/it-costs-50k-to-hire-a-software-...

pinewurst 7y ago

Not only that, but having my references checked before an actual interview. No way. I don't think even the NSA does that.

mayop100 7y ago
We did the phone screen and the take-home test and asked them to come in for the on-site interview before asking for references. So this was pretty late in the process.

maximente 7y ago

that means this filter is working as intended. from the article: > Please note that this post is intended to help with vetting of software engineering candidates at early-stage startups with significant technical complexity. candidates at early stage start ups need to sacrifice time, energy, and effort in a manner that's not based on hourly compensation for the company to hockey stick. it's critical to filter out people who aren't willing to do this. the proof is in the pudding: all the people volunteering time/effort, freely, to get better scores on the gold mine game... after they're hired. not to say those aren't redeeming qualities for talented software engineers. they're just using this curiosity/drive as a signal for "willing to work on cool stuff above and beyond normal salaried expectations, and not ask too many questions about how they will benefit". there's an obvious tie in to age here as well (younger people are less committed to external causes e.g. relationships, have weaker boundaries generally, more able to be starry eyed, etc.)

mattmar96 7y ago

It's not just the 8 hours though - It's the weeks on end of practice beforehand. And before someone says, "you should be sharp on your skills regardless of an upcoming interview", I challenge you to try a mock interview for a similar company.

aliceryhl 7y ago
You should be sharp on your skills regardless of an upcoming interview.
- inertiatic 7y ago
  Why should you be "sharp" on things you can Google for in seconds?

commandlinefan 7y ago

I keep reading that there’s a huge shortage of competent software developers. Then I keep reading that employers are kicking applicants in the teeth over and over as many times as they can get away with. Something about this doesn’t quite fit.

weka 7y ago
Not to mention they are still asking for references. Big yikes, Firebase.
mianos 7y ago
The other thing that is often odd is they place an ad for a position and list very specific domain knowledge and they say 'before we will consider you, you need do this arbitrary four hour on line coding test'. Here in Sydney we have a couple of trading firms complaining they can't get staff. I often think now, being able to confidently do the job needed very well, is not a primary requirement. When I say well, I mean, well coded, well documented, good design, not just able to solve the algorithm at hand. Are we short of good programmers or do we have to many?
wickedsickeune 7y ago
You should notice who says there is a shortage: employers. And what they mean, is that they can't find enough people to hire, meaning that few people satisfy their hiring criteria. This does not mean that few people apply, it means that their hiring process eliminates almost anyone.

asfarley 7y ago

Yeah, I'll be sure to filter out any Firebase jobs after reading this article.

arandr0x 7y ago

I've once taken a 5-hour pre-interview test that actually took me from "eh why not" about the company to them being my first choice. My other offers were from companies that did not have at-home tests. I thought the particular at-home test was relevant to the job I would be doing, it (and the job) were in a language that I found during the test much more fun than the language I was working in at the time, and I found it in general a very appetizing job teaser. Although yeah, I spend my evenings with my partner, and I was working extra hours at my real job, and it was a test you had only a few days to complete, so I had to pull an all-nighter for it.