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It should come as no surprise that the right answer is treating drug addiction and substance abuse like medical conditions rather than legal ones. The idea that

It should come as no surprise that the right answer is treating drug addiction and substance abuse like medical conditions rather than legal ones. The idea that the government should regulate what I choose to put in my own body is preposterous to begin with. If you want to criminalize something, try starting with the actions that drug addicts take towards others, not themselves. Driving while intoxicated, theft, vandalism and more serious crimes are already illegal and should stay so. It is impossible to violate your own rights; why should making a 100% personal decision be a crime?

corin_ 16y ago
Devil's advocate: should that right extend to allowing people to commit suicide without any attempt at prevention?
- cabalamat 16y ago
  You can hardly make successful suicide a crime. (Though there have been regimes that made unsuccessful suicide attempts illegal).
  - xal 16y ago
    suicide is illegal in germany.
    - jrockway 16y ago
      Punishable by death?
  - corin_ 16y ago
    I said "any attempt at prevention", not "making succesful suicide a crime". IANAL, but, in the UK at least, it's possible for somebody who is suicidal to be locked up for their own safety. That goes against the parent comment's logic that we have the right to do whatever we wish to our own bodies... so I'm not sure the what the issue is with my question.
    - pyre 16y ago
      I think that the logic is that you are 'not in your right mind,' though I suppose you could end up in a situation where drugs are legal, but anyone that would use them is 'not in their right mind' according to the establishment.
- drivebyacct2 16y ago
  It's tough because a "good" society would seek to help someone to prevent them from killing themselves. Counseling or treatment could help them. Maybe they've tried. Maybe they don't want to. Maybe they're plain tired of living. There are days that I feel bored with life. I would never do something so drastic as kill my life, but relative to many, I'm a spoiled little shit. I can only imagine how bad things could be for some. I hate it when people call those who kills themselves cowards. I couldn't imagine the pain I'd have to be in and the feeling of despair needed to kill myself. It's incredibly sad.
- fourspace 16y ago
  The government doesn't "allow" free people (those not in prison, psychiatric hospitals, etc.) to commit suicide; they are free to do so if they choose. Prevention is orthogonal to what I'm talking about. In fact, I'm all for helping those folks who are suicidal and will accept help. It's a shame that mental disease is one of the few afflictions that you can't admit you have, talk to others about or is even accepted as on par with more physical ailments.
- idm 16y ago
  Devil's advocate: is criminalization tantamount to prevention?
alrighty-then 16y ago
"why should making a 100% personal decision be a crime?" Because that "personal decision" has a huge negative influence on a lot of people. Drug use affects your family and friends negatively, it affects your coworkers, your employer, random people that you run over with your car or attack violently while high, and it raises taxes or insurance premiums since it's very costly to treat drug-related issues at hospitals. Sure, in the beginning drug use may be a personal decision that doesn't affect too many people - but once addiction kicks in - and it does to a very large percentage of users - your drug use has a hugely negative effect on everyone around you, and even strangers.
- haribilalic 16y ago
  Alcohol is a generally legal drug that has all the same issues.
  - alrighty-then 16y ago
    The difference is that hard drugs are a lot more addictive, and the consequences to addiction are a lot more serious.
    - burgerbrain 16y ago
      Ethanol is so absurdly addictive that you can actually flat out die from the withdraw. No opioid is going to do that. The only reason ethanol is legal to consume and most opioids are illegal is that ethanol has been with human society for thousands of years. There is nothing rational about it. Furthermore, it's hardly just "hard drugs" that are currently illegal. Even fucking caffeine is more dangerous than THC...
    - lwat 16y ago
      So where do you want to draw the line on this graph? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/Rational_scale_to_assess_the_harm_of_drugs_(mean_physical_harm_and_mean_dependence).svg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/Rational_...
pharrington 16y ago
The idea that the government should regulate what I choose to put in my own body is preposterous to begin with. The abolishment of the FDA seems like a pretty drastic measure by any standard. However effective drug legislation really -is not about this at all-. As you alluded to in your second point, it should be part of the broader system of minimizing the damage to society. Drugs are harmful -to society- when the criminal element is the sole distributor, when quality and dosages are completely uncontrollable, and price and availability of the addictive ish are unpredictable. Thus it seems the only way to quell the social damage of drug use of for the government to not only decriminalize everything, but to also ensure drugs are given away by community centers with specialized staff.
- Zak 16y ago
  it should be part of the broader system of minimizing the damage to society That's certainly one thing it should be about. Whether it is appropriate for the government to decide what substances people are permitted to introduce in to their own bodies is an important question though. Thus it seems the only way to quell the social damage of drug use of for the government to not only decriminalize everything, but to also ensure drugs are given away by community centers with specialized staff. Alcohol was pretty unsafe during prohibition, often containing methanol, a toxin which can blind or kill. Legalizing it meant that anyone producing and selling impure, mislabeled or adulterated alcohol could be sued or jailed. The same could be done with other drugs.
  - d2viant 16y ago
    It's a good point you make about alcohol, but I think the difference is that the "pure/regulated" alcoholic being sold can be consumed in a safe manner without any physical harm. I don't think a "pure" version of hardcore drugs are safe under any scenario. It's not simply a matter of them being laced with something that makes them dangerous.
    - idm 16y ago
      > alcoholic being sold can be consumed in a safe manner without any physical harm > I don't think a "pure" version of hardcore drugs are safe under any scenario. One of these statements is wrong, and one is right. Which is which?

corin_ 16y ago

Devil's advocate: should that right extend to allowing people to commit suicide without any attempt at prevention?

cabalamat 16y ago
You can hardly make successful suicide a crime. (Though there have been regimes that made unsuccessful suicide attempts illegal).
- xal 16y ago
  suicide is illegal in germany.
  - jrockway 16y ago
    Punishable by death?
- corin_ 16y ago
  I said "any attempt at prevention", not "making succesful suicide a crime". IANAL, but, in the UK at least, it's possible for somebody who is suicidal to be locked up for their own safety. That goes against the parent comment's logic that we have the right to do whatever we wish to our own bodies... so I'm not sure the what the issue is with my question.
  - pyre 16y ago
    I think that the logic is that you are 'not in your right mind,' though I suppose you could end up in a situation where drugs are legal, but anyone that would use them is 'not in their right mind' according to the establishment.
drivebyacct2 16y ago
It's tough because a "good" society would seek to help someone to prevent them from killing themselves. Counseling or treatment could help them. Maybe they've tried. Maybe they don't want to. Maybe they're plain tired of living. There are days that I feel bored with life. I would never do something so drastic as kill my life, but relative to many, I'm a spoiled little shit. I can only imagine how bad things could be for some. I hate it when people call those who kills themselves cowards. I couldn't imagine the pain I'd have to be in and the feeling of despair needed to kill myself. It's incredibly sad.
fourspace 16y ago
The government doesn't "allow" free people (those not in prison, psychiatric hospitals, etc.) to commit suicide; they are free to do so if they choose. Prevention is orthogonal to what I'm talking about. In fact, I'm all for helping those folks who are suicidal and will accept help. It's a shame that mental disease is one of the few afflictions that you can't admit you have, talk to others about or is even accepted as on par with more physical ailments.
idm 16y ago
Devil's advocate: is criminalization tantamount to prevention?

alrighty-then 16y ago

"why should making a 100% personal decision be a crime?" Because that "personal decision" has a huge negative influence on a lot of people. Drug use affects your family and friends negatively, it affects your coworkers, your employer, random people that you run over with your car or attack violently while high, and it raises taxes or insurance premiums since it's very costly to treat drug-related issues at hospitals. Sure, in the beginning drug use may be a personal decision that doesn't affect too many people - but once addiction kicks in - and it does to a very large percentage of users - your drug use has a hugely negative effect on everyone around you, and even strangers.

haribilalic 16y ago
Alcohol is a generally legal drug that has all the same issues.
- alrighty-then 16y ago
  The difference is that hard drugs are a lot more addictive, and the consequences to addiction are a lot more serious.
  - burgerbrain 16y ago
    Ethanol is so absurdly addictive that you can actually flat out die from the withdraw. No opioid is going to do that. The only reason ethanol is legal to consume and most opioids are illegal is that ethanol has been with human society for thousands of years. There is nothing rational about it. Furthermore, it's hardly just "hard drugs" that are currently illegal. Even fucking caffeine is more dangerous than THC...
  - lwat 16y ago
    So where do you want to draw the line on this graph? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/Rational_scale_to_assess_the_harm_of_drugs_(mean_physical_harm_and_mean_dependence).svg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/Rational_...

pharrington 16y ago

The idea that the government should regulate what I choose to put in my own body is preposterous to begin with. The abolishment of the FDA seems like a pretty drastic measure by any standard. However effective drug legislation really -is not about this at all-. As you alluded to in your second point, it should be part of the broader system of minimizing the damage to society. Drugs are harmful -to society- when the criminal element is the sole distributor, when quality and dosages are completely uncontrollable, and price and availability of the addictive ish are unpredictable. Thus it seems the only way to quell the social damage of drug use of for the government to not only decriminalize everything, but to also ensure drugs are given away by community centers with specialized staff.

Zak 16y ago
it should be part of the broader system of minimizing the damage to society That's certainly one thing it should be about. Whether it is appropriate for the government to decide what substances people are permitted to introduce in to their own bodies is an important question though. Thus it seems the only way to quell the social damage of drug use of for the government to not only decriminalize everything, but to also ensure drugs are given away by community centers with specialized staff. Alcohol was pretty unsafe during prohibition, often containing methanol, a toxin which can blind or kill. Legalizing it meant that anyone producing and selling impure, mislabeled or adulterated alcohol could be sued or jailed. The same could be done with other drugs.
- d2viant 16y ago
  It's a good point you make about alcohol, but I think the difference is that the "pure/regulated" alcoholic being sold can be consumed in a safe manner without any physical harm. I don't think a "pure" version of hardcore drugs are safe under any scenario. It's not simply a matter of them being laced with something that makes them dangerous.
  - idm 16y ago
    > alcoholic being sold can be consumed in a safe manner without any physical harm > I don't think a "pure" version of hardcore drugs are safe under any scenario. One of these statements is wrong, and one is right. Which is which?