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Historically, Mauna Kea is not the Jerusalem of the old Hawaiian religion. It's barely mentioned in the remaining oral tradition. There are other locations that

Historically, Mauna Kea is not the Jerusalem of the old Hawaiian religion. It's barely mentioned in the remaining oral tradition. There are other locations that were far more important, from a religious point of view (e.g., Kīlauea). It was taboo for normal people to go to the summit, but old Hawaii had a lot of taboos, and native Hawaiians also mined a huge amount of volcanic rock (which is great for making adzes) from the mountain. The old Hawaiian religion we're talking about, by the way, fell increasingly out of practice from the early 1800s onwards, when the Hawaiian monarchy broke the taboos, defeated the priesthood in battle, and converted to Christianity. What we're actually discussing is a modern reinvention of the old religion, in much altered form. This modern version is heavily entwined with a political movement - Hawaiian independence. But even if one accepts the modern practitioners' claims about what the old religion says, this isn't like building on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem. It's like building a mile away, beyond a ridge, in a location you can't see from the Temple Mount. TMT isn't at the summit, specifically because the project wanted to avoid any religious sites.

deleted 7y ago
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erikpukinskis 7y ago
The old religions of the Americans have been practiced in stealth because they were punishable by death. The fact that you go to Mexico and it seems like everyone is Catholic is because that’s what you had to make it look like if you wanted to not die. It does not mean that the old religion disappeared. It means you won’t see it unless you are very deep inside the circle of trust. The fact that you’re suddenly hearing about people practicing these things is not “new age” nonsense, it’s people finally having the visibility and support to do something publicly that it wasn’t safe to share until very recently. It’s also people who may have never grown up with it, but whose great grandma practiced bits and pieces, who are re-learning from the handful of knowledge keepers how to begin again. That too is not “new ageism” it’s an endangered species growing its population again. It’s a delicate process that is just as important as any telescope. And lastly, you may want to adjust your tone. You are talking about the murder and total cultural suppression of your opponents’ ancestors. This isn’t about the old CinePlex getting torn down, this is people’s basic tribal identity and their direct ancestors’ slaughter and slavery. These are not things you should just roll over with bravado.
- DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
  I don't think you know what you're talking about, with all due respect. The old Hawaiian religion was suppressed about 200 years ago, not by outsiders, but by the Hawaiian monarchy itself. Whether or not that was a good thing is a difficult question. The old social and religious system was extremely oppressive, with a dominant priestly class. The religion involved human sacrifice and strong strictures on behavior that people nowadays would find very troubling. The decision of the Hawaiian monarchy to break the power of the priests could be viewed as positive, as far as it allowed greater social freedoms to most Hawaiians. You say that the new practitioners of the religion are essentially just coming out of hiding, and practicing the same religion they've privately held for a long time, but that's not entirely true. Some of the central claims they make about the religion (e.g., Mauna Kea as the most sacred place in the religion) just do not square with what's known about how it used to be practiced. Other elements, such as "kapu aloha," are clearly very recent inventions. It's very naive to just ignore the entire political context of the religious revival (the Hawaiian independence movement and the attempt to create a separate national identity) and the historical evidence about the religion, and accept all the claims made about the religion by the leaders of the anti-TMT movement, who just happen to be independence activists.

deleted 7y ago

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erikpukinskis 7y ago

The old religions of the Americans have been practiced in stealth because they were punishable by death. The fact that you go to Mexico and it seems like everyone is Catholic is because that’s what you had to make it look like if you wanted to not die. It does not mean that the old religion disappeared. It means you won’t see it unless you are very deep inside the circle of trust. The fact that you’re suddenly hearing about people practicing these things is not “new age” nonsense, it’s people finally having the visibility and support to do something publicly that it wasn’t safe to share until very recently. It’s also people who may have never grown up with it, but whose great grandma practiced bits and pieces, who are re-learning from the handful of knowledge keepers how to begin again. That too is not “new ageism” it’s an endangered species growing its population again. It’s a delicate process that is just as important as any telescope. And lastly, you may want to adjust your tone. You are talking about the murder and total cultural suppression of your opponents’ ancestors. This isn’t about the old CinePlex getting torn down, this is people’s basic tribal identity and their direct ancestors’ slaughter and slavery. These are not things you should just roll over with bravado.

DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
I don't think you know what you're talking about, with all due respect. The old Hawaiian religion was suppressed about 200 years ago, not by outsiders, but by the Hawaiian monarchy itself. Whether or not that was a good thing is a difficult question. The old social and religious system was extremely oppressive, with a dominant priestly class. The religion involved human sacrifice and strong strictures on behavior that people nowadays would find very troubling. The decision of the Hawaiian monarchy to break the power of the priests could be viewed as positive, as far as it allowed greater social freedoms to most Hawaiians. You say that the new practitioners of the religion are essentially just coming out of hiding, and practicing the same religion they've privately held for a long time, but that's not entirely true. Some of the central claims they make about the religion (e.g., Mauna Kea as the most sacred place in the religion) just do not square with what's known about how it used to be practiced. Other elements, such as "kapu aloha," are clearly very recent inventions. It's very naive to just ignore the entire political context of the religious revival (the Hawaiian independence movement and the attempt to create a separate national identity) and the historical evidence about the religion, and accept all the claims made about the religion by the leaders of the anti-TMT movement, who just happen to be independence activists.