4 ms·

It’s sad to me that TFA can paper over what a massive step-up these apps are from the previous status quo, and how much better they will continue to become, in

by zaroth 7y ago

It’s sad to me that TFA can paper over what a massive step-up these apps are from the previous status quo, and how much better they will continue to become, in large part because of the independent contractor nature of the delivery people. What was once an entirely untracked and mostly underground exploitation of illegal immigrants is now an app which tracks every minute worked, every task completed, which workers can turn on and off at their own whim. Somehow the fact that workers have to provide a social security number is spun as a negative. Any app that can create features which make the service better will result in higher wages and tips per delivery, and riders/drivers can shift from app to app (sometimes within a single day) to follow these trends. Talk to the actual couriers and they don’t want to be employees, because this very frequently is not a full time job. For the people it is a full time job, conversely, they are the ones least likely to be hired if shoe-horned into employment status. Last week I had dinner delivered by a young woman driving while her son did homework in the passenger seat. This was apparently someone who needed to make some extra cash for a few hours each evening, and the cost of child care would obviously significantly reduce (if not eliminate) any income. The flexibility of being able to jump in the car and earn crucial dollars without the massive overhead of an employment contract is very valuable, and helping a lot of people. I think we need to keep perspective that food delivery is just about the least skilled (lowest training required) job you can find in the US, and these apps are upending a traditionally extremely exploitative market with software that can never steal the driver’s wages, or racially discriminate against the driver, or be verbally abusive, etc. while at the same time providing potential work for millions of people at the click of a button.

fucking_tragedy 7y ago
> Talk to the actual couriers I have: they don't like the current arrangement. When they're tipped via apps, they don't even get to keep them. Doesn't sound like they're independent contractors when they can't set their own rates and collect from their clients without the delivery app companies skimming their tips. > they don’t want to be employees, because this very frequently is not a full time job. This is a false dichotomy. Many people work multiple jobs on a flexible schedule where they are considered employees at each of their employers. They also hate the tax burden that is quarterly filing and paying the self-employment tax.
- shawnz 7y ago
  > When they're tipped via apps, they don't even get to keep them. I thought the only one still doing this was DoorDash, and they reversed it after the recent backlash?
  - untog 7y ago
    It's nebulous. Apps that employ(/contract/whatever) their delivery drivers separately from the restaurant have a clear picture, but when you leave a tip on a site like Seamless the money goes to the restaurant. You certainly hope the restaurant is distributing that to the staff, but you don't know for sure.
    - deminature 7y ago
      It's not nebulous, the policies are very clear. Tips 100% go to the driver on every network except Doordash [1]. [1] https://www.huffpost.com/entry/tipping-policies-delivery-services-uber-eats-prime-now-postmates-doordash-instacart-caviar_l_5d38c14ae4b0419fd3376278 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/tipping-policies-delivery-ser...
      - untog 7y ago
        Interesting, in my experience (in NYC) Seamless and the like absolutely do not employee the delivery drivers. They are employed by the restaurants. Though apparently in some areas they do employ drivers: https://ny.eater.com/2016/4/14/11433288/seamless-delivery-drivers https://ny.eater.com/2016/4/14/11433288/seamless-delivery-dr... In NYC at least my comment is still true. When Seamless does not employ the driver, you do not know where your tip is going.
    - dustinmr 7y ago
      I also don’t particularly know if a restaurant pays tips to their wait staff when I pay a bill with a credit card.
      - 7y ago
mdorazio 7y ago
Here's the problem. Rather than actually solving the underlying problems of lack of good jobs, training, and support networks for these people you're just giving them a slightly less-shitty "job", rationalizing away all the bad parts by saying it's "flexible" now, checking the box for employment, and calling it good until automated delivery completely destroys these jobs in a few years. I would personally argue that this is worse in many ways than if we could point to high unemployment and people marching in the streets as reasons we need to change the status quo in more meaningful ways.
- zaroth 7y ago
  I mean, if you need people starving and rioting in the street to obtain your policy goals, maybe that’s a good point to stop and rethink?
  - whataboutisms 7y ago
    You have it backwards. The policy goal is to avoid starving and rioting in the streets.
  - colinyoung 7y ago
    This comment is wildly out of touch with how power works and change happens in this world
    - zaroth 7y ago
      I’m not taking the flame bait. TFA is discussing the app economy for last mile delivery, a market which TFA admits was previously largely exploitative of illegal immigrant labor paid under the table and often abused in the process. The is a prime example where the world has changed for the better through software. The job is now above board, tracked, and accounted in ways that make it better paying, more reliable and even safer work. The competitiveness of the marketplace will only ensure these jobs become even better paying and safer over time. Exceedingly low job switching costs is a massive contributor to the competitive forces which lead to these advances, which in fact serve to protect low skilled workers from otherwise abusive employers. Every delivery app platform lives in absolute fear of all their contractors switching to the competition because they found a way to more efficiently schedule, queue, route, deliver, fulfill their customers and therefore can pay the couriers a higher rate or ensure them more profitable routes or a larger tip share.
cookie_monsta 7y ago
> Any app that can create features which make the service better will result in higher wages and tips per delivery Sounds lovely in theory but I'm struggling to think of a real world example where this happens in low-wage jobs. > food delivery is just about the least skilled (lowest training required) job you can find in the US If done by car it requires a drivers' license, putting it several steps above zero-training > providing potential work for millions of people at the click of a button Um... you realise that this work already exists, right? The apps aren't actually creating work. At best they're coordinating logistics.
- Kipters 7y ago
  >If done by car it requires a drivers' license, putting it several steps above zero-training Most of these workers, in Italy at least, use bikes
- danans 7y ago
  > If done by car it requires a drivers' license, putting it several steps above zero-training Outside of a few major cities with comprehensive public transit, having a driver's license is practically a necessity for survival in the United States. Driving is not a skill that elevates anyone beyond the most basic level of employability.
- zaroth 7y ago
  I’ll give you an example I know from personal experience. Initial versions of the app would let you search for a delivery, select a job, and complete the run. Then you would simply repeat the whole process again. Newer versions try to plan out a sequence of deliveries, and even concurrent deliveries where you do two pickups and then two deliveries, e.g. two pickups at the same restaurant and then two drops nearby. In urban environments it’s not uncommon to have orders bundled that go from the same restaurant and deliver to different units / offices at the same address. Intelligently batching orders so that they are delivered both faster and cheaper (saving time by using a courier that’s already at the restaurant, balancing that against needing both orders ready before they can leave) Every efficiency improvement means more tips for the driver and lower cost for the platform. It’s basically the singular focus of these companies to improve their queuing, matchmaking, pricing and routing algorithms to decrease delivery time and increase driver tips (flip sides of the same coin). You may have seen basically the same kind of improvement within Uber, where your driver will have a pickup already matched in their queue before they even drop you off. Ideally the app even brings the new pickup to exactly the same curbside location as the drop off. This makes more money for the driver and for Uber - incentives are perfectly aligned, and probably even saves the pickup customer time because they are getting picked up faster with less fumbling around in between customers. Triple win. Zero training / low skilled doesn’t mean there are no basic requirements (e.g. literacy, but also it may be physically demanding work). It means you don’t need a high school degree and you can start doing the job essentially on Day 1. Lastly, it’s important to note that the convenience of these apps has ushered in an explosion of growth in the food delivery market. It’s a huge win for restaurants and couriers alike. Maybe not so much for grocery stores and waistlines? Not just new types of food being delivered which normally would not be available for delivery, but growth in the overall delivery volume within well established traditional food delivery verticals like pizza and chinese.

by zaroth 7y ago

fucking_tragedy 7y ago

> Talk to the actual couriers I have: they don't like the current arrangement. When they're tipped via apps, they don't even get to keep them. Doesn't sound like they're independent contractors when they can't set their own rates and collect from their clients without the delivery app companies skimming their tips. > they don’t want to be employees, because this very frequently is not a full time job. This is a false dichotomy. Many people work multiple jobs on a flexible schedule where they are considered employees at each of their employers. They also hate the tax burden that is quarterly filing and paying the self-employment tax.

shawnz 7y ago
> When they're tipped via apps, they don't even get to keep them. I thought the only one still doing this was DoorDash, and they reversed it after the recent backlash?
- untog 7y ago
  It's nebulous. Apps that employ(/contract/whatever) their delivery drivers separately from the restaurant have a clear picture, but when you leave a tip on a site like Seamless the money goes to the restaurant. You certainly hope the restaurant is distributing that to the staff, but you don't know for sure.
  - deminature 7y ago
    It's not nebulous, the policies are very clear. Tips 100% go to the driver on every network except Doordash [1]. [1] https://www.huffpost.com/entry/tipping-policies-delivery-services-uber-eats-prime-now-postmates-doordash-instacart-caviar_l_5d38c14ae4b0419fd3376278 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/tipping-policies-delivery-ser...
    - untog 7y ago
      Interesting, in my experience (in NYC) Seamless and the like absolutely do not employee the delivery drivers. They are employed by the restaurants. Though apparently in some areas they do employ drivers: https://ny.eater.com/2016/4/14/11433288/seamless-delivery-drivers https://ny.eater.com/2016/4/14/11433288/seamless-delivery-dr... In NYC at least my comment is still true. When Seamless does not employ the driver, you do not know where your tip is going.
  - dustinmr 7y ago
    I also don’t particularly know if a restaurant pays tips to their wait staff when I pay a bill with a credit card.
    - 7y ago

mdorazio 7y ago

Here's the problem. Rather than actually solving the underlying problems of lack of good jobs, training, and support networks for these people you're just giving them a slightly less-shitty "job", rationalizing away all the bad parts by saying it's "flexible" now, checking the box for employment, and calling it good until automated delivery completely destroys these jobs in a few years. I would personally argue that this is worse in many ways than if we could point to high unemployment and people marching in the streets as reasons we need to change the status quo in more meaningful ways.

zaroth 7y ago
I mean, if you need people starving and rioting in the street to obtain your policy goals, maybe that’s a good point to stop and rethink?
- whataboutisms 7y ago
  You have it backwards. The policy goal is to avoid starving and rioting in the streets.
- colinyoung 7y ago
  This comment is wildly out of touch with how power works and change happens in this world
  - zaroth 7y ago
    I’m not taking the flame bait. TFA is discussing the app economy for last mile delivery, a market which TFA admits was previously largely exploitative of illegal immigrant labor paid under the table and often abused in the process. The is a prime example where the world has changed for the better through software. The job is now above board, tracked, and accounted in ways that make it better paying, more reliable and even safer work. The competitiveness of the marketplace will only ensure these jobs become even better paying and safer over time. Exceedingly low job switching costs is a massive contributor to the competitive forces which lead to these advances, which in fact serve to protect low skilled workers from otherwise abusive employers. Every delivery app platform lives in absolute fear of all their contractors switching to the competition because they found a way to more efficiently schedule, queue, route, deliver, fulfill their customers and therefore can pay the couriers a higher rate or ensure them more profitable routes or a larger tip share.

cookie_monsta 7y ago

> Any app that can create features which make the service better will result in higher wages and tips per delivery Sounds lovely in theory but I'm struggling to think of a real world example where this happens in low-wage jobs. > food delivery is just about the least skilled (lowest training required) job you can find in the US If done by car it requires a drivers' license, putting it several steps above zero-training > providing potential work for millions of people at the click of a button Um... you realise that this work already exists, right? The apps aren't actually creating work. At best they're coordinating logistics.

Kipters 7y ago
>If done by car it requires a drivers' license, putting it several steps above zero-training Most of these workers, in Italy at least, use bikes
danans 7y ago
> If done by car it requires a drivers' license, putting it several steps above zero-training Outside of a few major cities with comprehensive public transit, having a driver's license is practically a necessity for survival in the United States. Driving is not a skill that elevates anyone beyond the most basic level of employability.
zaroth 7y ago
I’ll give you an example I know from personal experience. Initial versions of the app would let you search for a delivery, select a job, and complete the run. Then you would simply repeat the whole process again. Newer versions try to plan out a sequence of deliveries, and even concurrent deliveries where you do two pickups and then two deliveries, e.g. two pickups at the same restaurant and then two drops nearby. In urban environments it’s not uncommon to have orders bundled that go from the same restaurant and deliver to different units / offices at the same address. Intelligently batching orders so that they are delivered both faster and cheaper (saving time by using a courier that’s already at the restaurant, balancing that against needing both orders ready before they can leave) Every efficiency improvement means more tips for the driver and lower cost for the platform. It’s basically the singular focus of these companies to improve their queuing, matchmaking, pricing and routing algorithms to decrease delivery time and increase driver tips (flip sides of the same coin). You may have seen basically the same kind of improvement within Uber, where your driver will have a pickup already matched in their queue before they even drop you off. Ideally the app even brings the new pickup to exactly the same curbside location as the drop off. This makes more money for the driver and for Uber - incentives are perfectly aligned, and probably even saves the pickup customer time because they are getting picked up faster with less fumbling around in between customers. Triple win. Zero training / low skilled doesn’t mean there are no basic requirements (e.g. literacy, but also it may be physically demanding work). It means you don’t need a high school degree and you can start doing the job essentially on Day 1. Lastly, it’s important to note that the convenience of these apps has ushered in an explosion of growth in the food delivery market. It’s a huge win for restaurants and couriers alike. Maybe not so much for grocery stores and waistlines? Not just new types of food being delivered which normally would not be available for delivery, but growth in the overall delivery volume within well established traditional food delivery verticals like pizza and chinese.