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People expressing different perspectives and influencing decisions isn't an absolute good. It certainly can be positive and desireable in many situations. In ot

People expressing different perspectives and influencing decisions isn't an absolute good. It certainly can be positive and desireable in many situations. In others it can be utterly destructive, such as the the anti-vax movement or climate change skeptics.

CharlesColeman 7y ago
> People expressing different perspectives and influencing decisions isn't an absolute good. I would say it is, as long as they're being honest (even if you judge their honest position to be wrong).
- Phenix88be 7y ago
  This was true for the ancien Grec, but in the 21 century manipulation at large scale are really efficient thanks to the technology. People honestly believe that vaccine cause autism and it doesn't change the problem it bring to the rests of us.
  - authoritarian 7y ago
    >People honestly believe that vaccine cause autism These are also the scumbags that feed their autistic children bleach causing them to poop out their own stomach lining, and the parents think they are removing "autism worms"
cgriswald 7y ago
I don't think it is utterly destructive in the anti-vax movement. Dangerous and stupid, sure, but what if the government was trying to force you to put something else in your body that you thought was not in your best interests or that of your child? Isn't it an absolute good that you're able to speak up and resist?
- echelon 7y ago
  > force you to put something else in your body that you thought was not in your best interests or that of your child? It's not in the best interest of other children to let your children not be immunized. One of the reasons immunizations work so well is because of herd immunity. The entire population doesn't need to be inoculated against every random mutation the virus will take. Enough of the population has good enough immunity that the virus can't take a foothold. But once you dip below a certain percentage, the virus gets free rein to spread and evolve again. Effective immunization requires that we all mostly get immunized.
  - cgriswald 7y ago
    You don't have to convince me. I know all this and I'm not an anti-vaxxer. > It's not in the best interest of other children to let your children not be immunized. This doesn't change my point at all. First, the idea that my child should be subjected to something harmful because it's better for other children doesn't fly with me. I doubt it flies with anyone. I vaccinated my kid for her benefit and for everyone else's, but if the choice is "everyone else" or "my kid"... I don't think you have to be a parent to see how that one shakes out. Second, that's not how anti-vaxxers see it. They see it as bad for those children as well.
    - authoritarian 7y ago
      >the idea that my child should be subjected to something harmful because it's better for other children doesn't fly with me They aren't being subjected to something harmful, they falsely believe that it's something harmful because they saw an infographic on facebook >that's not how anti-vaxxers see it. They see it as bad for those children as well. Yes, and this kind of toxic stupidity should not be tolerated as it puts everyone else at risk
      - cgriswald 7y ago
        If you want to boil this down to black-and-white you need to compare the past, present, and future deaths of the anti-vax movement against the solution of 'not tolerating' anything that doesn't meet your utilitarian ideal. And that's aside from the moral aspects.
- authoritarian 7y ago
  >Isn't it an absolute good that you're able to speak up and resist? For the morons it's great, not so much for the millions of people exposed to diseases that had essentially been eradicated due to other people's stupidity
- ubuntu12 7y ago
  Found an anti-vax ^
- robocat 7y ago
  > Isn't it an absolute good that you're able to speak up and resist? And yet we have lots of areas that are taboo: where speaking up or resisting will mark you as a danger, and you will be punished. #metoo
- conjectures 7y ago
  Another way to look at is that children have the right to not have their health jeopardised by the fact free opinions of their parents.
la_barba 7y ago
Your example is off the mark. What people mean by that sentiment is that as long as you don't harm others, you should have the freedom to do what you want. Climate-change and ant-vax are issues that impact everyone else on the planet.
- lukaa 7y ago
  No man is island. So even if you are just harming yourself by drinking or taking drugs you are also ruining your family and indirectly society by making that behavior more socially acceptable. So there shouldn't be absolute freedom in anything.
  - tempguy9999 7y ago
    > you are also ruining your family I effectively never had one, so does that make it acceptable? > and indirectly society I know plenty of drug takers that function fine in society[0]. I anticipate your response might be "they would function even better if they didn't", but perhaps forcibly removing choice from adults is also damaging. [0] and some don't, to be sure.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - esyir 7y ago
      For public safety, those that function well don't matter that much if the overall trend skews heavily negative though.
      - robocat 7y ago
        Maybe we need drinking licences. You need to pass multiple tests that cost a lot of money to administer, and if you are caught breaking the rules you get a fine or go to jail (depending on the legal framework, which rules you broke, and how good your lawyer is).
      - tempguy9999 7y ago

CharlesColeman 7y ago

> People expressing different perspectives and influencing decisions isn't an absolute good. I would say it is, as long as they're being honest (even if you judge their honest position to be wrong).

Phenix88be 7y ago
This was true for the ancien Grec, but in the 21 century manipulation at large scale are really efficient thanks to the technology. People honestly believe that vaccine cause autism and it doesn't change the problem it bring to the rests of us.
- authoritarian 7y ago
  >People honestly believe that vaccine cause autism These are also the scumbags that feed their autistic children bleach causing them to poop out their own stomach lining, and the parents think they are removing "autism worms"

cgriswald 7y ago

I don't think it is utterly destructive in the anti-vax movement. Dangerous and stupid, sure, but what if the government was trying to force you to put something else in your body that you thought was not in your best interests or that of your child? Isn't it an absolute good that you're able to speak up and resist?

echelon 7y ago
> force you to put something else in your body that you thought was not in your best interests or that of your child? It's not in the best interest of other children to let your children not be immunized. One of the reasons immunizations work so well is because of herd immunity. The entire population doesn't need to be inoculated against every random mutation the virus will take. Enough of the population has good enough immunity that the virus can't take a foothold. But once you dip below a certain percentage, the virus gets free rein to spread and evolve again. Effective immunization requires that we all mostly get immunized.
- cgriswald 7y ago
  You don't have to convince me. I know all this and I'm not an anti-vaxxer. > It's not in the best interest of other children to let your children not be immunized. This doesn't change my point at all. First, the idea that my child should be subjected to something harmful because it's better for other children doesn't fly with me. I doubt it flies with anyone. I vaccinated my kid for her benefit and for everyone else's, but if the choice is "everyone else" or "my kid"... I don't think you have to be a parent to see how that one shakes out. Second, that's not how anti-vaxxers see it. They see it as bad for those children as well.
  - authoritarian 7y ago
    >the idea that my child should be subjected to something harmful because it's better for other children doesn't fly with me They aren't being subjected to something harmful, they falsely believe that it's something harmful because they saw an infographic on facebook >that's not how anti-vaxxers see it. They see it as bad for those children as well. Yes, and this kind of toxic stupidity should not be tolerated as it puts everyone else at risk
    - cgriswald 7y ago
      If you want to boil this down to black-and-white you need to compare the past, present, and future deaths of the anti-vax movement against the solution of 'not tolerating' anything that doesn't meet your utilitarian ideal. And that's aside from the moral aspects.
authoritarian 7y ago
>Isn't it an absolute good that you're able to speak up and resist? For the morons it's great, not so much for the millions of people exposed to diseases that had essentially been eradicated due to other people's stupidity
ubuntu12 7y ago
Found an anti-vax ^
robocat 7y ago
> Isn't it an absolute good that you're able to speak up and resist? And yet we have lots of areas that are taboo: where speaking up or resisting will mark you as a danger, and you will be punished. #metoo
conjectures 7y ago
Another way to look at is that children have the right to not have their health jeopardised by the fact free opinions of their parents.

la_barba 7y ago

Your example is off the mark. What people mean by that sentiment is that as long as you don't harm others, you should have the freedom to do what you want. Climate-change and ant-vax are issues that impact everyone else on the planet.

lukaa 7y ago
No man is island. So even if you are just harming yourself by drinking or taking drugs you are also ruining your family and indirectly society by making that behavior more socially acceptable. So there shouldn't be absolute freedom in anything.
- tempguy9999 7y ago
  > you are also ruining your family I effectively never had one, so does that make it acceptable? > and indirectly society I know plenty of drug takers that function fine in society[0]. I anticipate your response might be "they would function even better if they didn't", but perhaps forcibly removing choice from adults is also damaging. [0] and some don't, to be sure.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - esyir 7y ago
    For public safety, those that function well don't matter that much if the overall trend skews heavily negative though.
    - robocat 7y ago
      Maybe we need drinking licences. You need to pass multiple tests that cost a lot of money to administer, and if you are caught breaking the rules you get a fine or go to jail (depending on the legal framework, which rules you broke, and how good your lawyer is).
    - tempguy9999 7y ago