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> 1. Lying has always been considered a valid political tool. It isn't really clear how a government can operate without lying. Could you expand on this? Why co

> 1. Lying has always been considered a valid political tool. It isn't really clear how a government can operate without lying. Could you expand on this? Why could the government not operate without lying, except for extreme situations like war?

hamilyon2 7y ago
Essentially any kind of state secrets, propaganda (in athoritorian countries is a must), promises of candidates, rallies in support of anything... list goes on.
leftyted 7y ago
It's been a while since I read the essay and I don't exactly remember the distinctions drawn. I'll venture my own opinions: Lying is necessary when trying to move through the world. Governments lie for the same reason people lie. Governments restrict information just like people have internal opinions and thoughts we keep hidden. Governments need to act, which involves imagining the world as it doesn't exist and spreading that imaginary world in order to create a consensus. This is very similar to lying and the boundaries aren't obvious. People don't want a government that tells the truth and will not vote for a candidate who tells the truth. See McGovern vs. Nixon.
- coldtea 7y ago
  >Governments need to act, which involves imagining the world as it doesn't exist and spreading that imaginary world in order to create a consensus. This is very similar to lying and the boundaries aren't obvious. I think that's a very stretched analogy. Governments lie in much more obvious, and less noble, ways than "imagining a future world and spreading it"...
  - leftyted 7y ago
    > Governments lie in much more obvious, and less noble, ways than "imagining a future world and spreading it"... Perhaps but what I'm attempting to describe is something that all governments necessarily do. Also I'm not arguing that this is "noble". Whether you think it's "noble" depends on what you think of the government's ends and means.
  - Bartweiss 7y ago
    I think the reconciliation here might be that "imagining a future world and spreading it" isn't necessarily noble or different from blatant lying. An example: the UK government has been playing chicken with the EU over a Brexit deal. As Johnson tells it, the goal is to prepare for and commit to a successful no-deal Brexit in order to gain leverage for a better deal. (There's some debate about whether a deal is actually being pursued, but let's assume it is.) The UK government, then, is imagining a world where it can pass and succeed at no-deal Brexit, and is consequently able to negotiate a good deal. If the real state of affairs is "it'll be a disaster and so our MPs won't let us"... well, spreading that imaginary world would require lying in a very mundane, "knowingly making false statements" manner. A move like releasing the Operation Yellowhammer documents would interfere with that consensus-building. Of course, that's far from the only reason governments lie. Continuing the example, the Brexit process has been absolutely full of lying that was not even slightly in the public interest. But the point is that governments lie for selfish reasons by invoking the arguments and mechanisms they justify with public-interest lying. It's fundamentally the same problem as government secrecy: the intent of the system is compromised by scrutiny, so it becomes an obvious channel for abuses of power. It's possible, I suppose, that a government could solve this by simply not ever lying. A crisis like Brexit was self-inflicted by committing to the outcome before doing the planning, and you can just not do that. But it becomes a much stickier issue with questions like "should we lie about our military readiness, or admit what we're unable to resist to our hostile neighbors?" (And saying "only lie about military stuff" still leaves you with politicians lying about war to get elected, pass kickbacks, and so on.) At the very least, it seems like you'd need military security and relative economic stability before you could try to demand total honesty. (None of this is an endorsement of governments lying, though. To me it's mostly a justification for extremely constrained state power to minimize the threat of those lies.)
coldtea 7y ago
>Why could the government not operate without lying, except for extreme situations like war? Because the government consists of people and people have hidden motives, private interests, and ideologies...
- dandare 7y ago
  the question was "why could it not", not "why it would end up enyway"
  - coldtea 7y ago
    It can not because in the real world flawless people don't exist. In another world (where flawless people do exist), it might be able to work, but we don't usually say "it can totally work" for things that are only feasible in an alternate reality with different attributes.
rolltiide 7y ago
In the US, anyone, anywhere in the world can make Freedom of Information Act requests The details may hurt
Bartweiss 7y ago
> Why could the government not operate without lying, except for extreme situations like war? Cynically? Because if you do that, then all the lies the government wants to tell get justified with war. Let's say you want to limit your lying to extremely narrow issues like "Ruritania wants to invade, so let's mis-state our defensive strength on the border". Now if Senator Jones wants to send some pork to his district, he can arrange to buy overpriced military radar for the border, since that part of the budget won't be scrutinized. If a presidential candidate wants to scare people, he can announce a widget gap at the border, knowing that the real number of widgets is a secret. That's a bit extreme, but I think the reality is a slightly broader version of the same. Governments conceal or lie about who they surveil so the suspects won't find out, which creates opportunities to surveil dissidents and political enemies. Governments lie about their mechanisms of surveillance so they won't be circumvented, which lets them conceal the use of unethical methods. Governments lie about their trade positions and economic confidence to negotiate better deals and avoid market panics, which lets them lie about who they're negotiating to benefit and how strong their economic planning is. We could probably have governments that lie less, perhaps we could decide that total economic openness is a net benefit. But the underlying problem remains: both secrecy and lying are antithetical to oversight, so any ugly intention will get channeled through whatever narrow categories we decide to allow.

hamilyon2 7y ago

Essentially any kind of state secrets, propaganda (in athoritorian countries is a must), promises of candidates, rallies in support of anything... list goes on.

leftyted 7y ago

It's been a while since I read the essay and I don't exactly remember the distinctions drawn. I'll venture my own opinions: Lying is necessary when trying to move through the world. Governments lie for the same reason people lie. Governments restrict information just like people have internal opinions and thoughts we keep hidden. Governments need to act, which involves imagining the world as it doesn't exist and spreading that imaginary world in order to create a consensus. This is very similar to lying and the boundaries aren't obvious. People don't want a government that tells the truth and will not vote for a candidate who tells the truth. See McGovern vs. Nixon.

coldtea 7y ago
>Governments need to act, which involves imagining the world as it doesn't exist and spreading that imaginary world in order to create a consensus. This is very similar to lying and the boundaries aren't obvious. I think that's a very stretched analogy. Governments lie in much more obvious, and less noble, ways than "imagining a future world and spreading it"...
- leftyted 7y ago
  > Governments lie in much more obvious, and less noble, ways than "imagining a future world and spreading it"... Perhaps but what I'm attempting to describe is something that all governments necessarily do. Also I'm not arguing that this is "noble". Whether you think it's "noble" depends on what you think of the government's ends and means.
- Bartweiss 7y ago
  I think the reconciliation here might be that "imagining a future world and spreading it" isn't necessarily noble or different from blatant lying. An example: the UK government has been playing chicken with the EU over a Brexit deal. As Johnson tells it, the goal is to prepare for and commit to a successful no-deal Brexit in order to gain leverage for a better deal. (There's some debate about whether a deal is actually being pursued, but let's assume it is.) The UK government, then, is imagining a world where it can pass and succeed at no-deal Brexit, and is consequently able to negotiate a good deal. If the real state of affairs is "it'll be a disaster and so our MPs won't let us"... well, spreading that imaginary world would require lying in a very mundane, "knowingly making false statements" manner. A move like releasing the Operation Yellowhammer documents would interfere with that consensus-building. Of course, that's far from the only reason governments lie. Continuing the example, the Brexit process has been absolutely full of lying that was not even slightly in the public interest. But the point is that governments lie for selfish reasons by invoking the arguments and mechanisms they justify with public-interest lying. It's fundamentally the same problem as government secrecy: the intent of the system is compromised by scrutiny, so it becomes an obvious channel for abuses of power. It's possible, I suppose, that a government could solve this by simply not ever lying. A crisis like Brexit was self-inflicted by committing to the outcome before doing the planning, and you can just not do that. But it becomes a much stickier issue with questions like "should we lie about our military readiness, or admit what we're unable to resist to our hostile neighbors?" (And saying "only lie about military stuff" still leaves you with politicians lying about war to get elected, pass kickbacks, and so on.) At the very least, it seems like you'd need military security and relative economic stability before you could try to demand total honesty. (None of this is an endorsement of governments lying, though. To me it's mostly a justification for extremely constrained state power to minimize the threat of those lies.)

coldtea 7y ago

>Why could the government not operate without lying, except for extreme situations like war? Because the government consists of people and people have hidden motives, private interests, and ideologies...

dandare 7y ago
the question was "why could it not", not "why it would end up enyway"
- coldtea 7y ago
  It can not because in the real world flawless people don't exist. In another world (where flawless people do exist), it might be able to work, but we don't usually say "it can totally work" for things that are only feasible in an alternate reality with different attributes.

rolltiide 7y ago

In the US, anyone, anywhere in the world can make Freedom of Information Act requests The details may hurt

Bartweiss 7y ago

> Why could the government not operate without lying, except for extreme situations like war? Cynically? Because if you do that, then all the lies the government wants to tell get justified with war. Let's say you want to limit your lying to extremely narrow issues like "Ruritania wants to invade, so let's mis-state our defensive strength on the border". Now if Senator Jones wants to send some pork to his district, he can arrange to buy overpriced military radar for the border, since that part of the budget won't be scrutinized. If a presidential candidate wants to scare people, he can announce a widget gap at the border, knowing that the real number of widgets is a secret. That's a bit extreme, but I think the reality is a slightly broader version of the same. Governments conceal or lie about who they surveil so the suspects won't find out, which creates opportunities to surveil dissidents and political enemies. Governments lie about their mechanisms of surveillance so they won't be circumvented, which lets them conceal the use of unethical methods. Governments lie about their trade positions and economic confidence to negotiate better deals and avoid market panics, which lets them lie about who they're negotiating to benefit and how strong their economic planning is. We could probably have governments that lie less, perhaps we could decide that total economic openness is a net benefit. But the underlying problem remains: both secrecy and lying are antithetical to oversight, so any ugly intention will get channeled through whatever narrow categories we decide to allow.