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> Meanwhile, TMT is still facing tons of opposition Which is one of the things that makes democracy and civil rights great: different people can express differ

> Meanwhile, TMT is still facing tons of opposition Which is one of the things that makes democracy and civil rights great: different people can express different perspectives and influence the decisions made.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
TomMarius 7y ago
I don't really see opposition to progress as great. But I mean that in general sense, there are some limits, and I know nothing about this specific case.
- zo1 7y ago
  It's good that they can voice their opposition. It's bad to you that they're opposing progress according to your definition of progress. There is a distinction. The other side of this is that there is an element of obstructionism built into the model of democracy. Too much process, back and forth, judge-intervention, lawsuits, counter-lawsuits, voting and representation, etc. It would be ideal if we simply allowed everyone to vote on it, and go with the majority outcome.
  - mc32 7y ago
    Affording ourselves insight into the cosmos I think is unreservedly progressive. If Paris can move graveyards and cemeteries underground for progress, surely something similar can be arranged to enable progress on the one hand and afford people the ability to honor their ancestors and culture.
    - zo1 7y ago
      Oh, don't get me wrong. I fully agree that looking and moving towards the stars is progress we should be working towards and doing so delicately if necessary. There are too many fixable and silly-things happening in the world today that absolutely demolish our ability to progress as a society.
- Gabriel_Martin 7y ago
  I took your comment to mean, and I agree, that progress is subjective. For example if I oppose mining pits which utilize child labor, I would effectively be opposing the progress of technology which require the rare minerals that come out of them. Still progress though.
- cicero 7y ago
  Unopposed progress is why we are now having concerns about the environment.
  - hangonhn 7y ago
    A wise comment befitting an account with that name.
bart_spoon 7y ago
People expressing different perspectives and influencing decisions isn't an absolute good. It certainly can be positive and desireable in many situations. In others it can be utterly destructive, such as the the anti-vax movement or climate change skeptics.
- CharlesColeman 7y ago
  > People expressing different perspectives and influencing decisions isn't an absolute good. I would say it is, as long as they're being honest (even if you judge their honest position to be wrong).
  - Phenix88be 7y ago
    This was true for the ancien Grec, but in the 21 century manipulation at large scale are really efficient thanks to the technology. People honestly believe that vaccine cause autism and it doesn't change the problem it bring to the rests of us.
    - authoritarian 7y ago
      >People honestly believe that vaccine cause autism These are also the scumbags that feed their autistic children bleach causing them to poop out their own stomach lining, and the parents think they are removing "autism worms"
- cgriswald 7y ago
  I don't think it is utterly destructive in the anti-vax movement. Dangerous and stupid, sure, but what if the government was trying to force you to put something else in your body that you thought was not in your best interests or that of your child? Isn't it an absolute good that you're able to speak up and resist?
  - echelon 7y ago
    > force you to put something else in your body that you thought was not in your best interests or that of your child? It's not in the best interest of other children to let your children not be immunized. One of the reasons immunizations work so well is because of herd immunity. The entire population doesn't need to be inoculated against every random mutation the virus will take. Enough of the population has good enough immunity that the virus can't take a foothold. But once you dip below a certain percentage, the virus gets free rein to spread and evolve again. Effective immunization requires that we all mostly get immunized.
malms 7y ago
this is literally nimby
- CharlesColeman 7y ago
  As I understand it, the opposition to the TMT isn't a NIMBY issue: it's more about a historically ignored group trying to gain influence over issues it cares about.
  - malms 7y ago
    it's still nimby too
    - ajross 7y ago
      Not really. As typically used "NIMBY" has a component of hypocrisy. Just not wanting something to happen is "opposition". "Not in my backyard" connotes the idea that someone supports some project in principle, but not when it affects them directly. "I like wind power, but not when it blocks the view of my cottage", "I like high density housing, but not if it affects my property values", "I like mass transit, but don't want a subway station in my neighborhood." In this case, "I don't want another giant telescope on my culture's sacred mountain" isn't about astronomy at all, it's about the culture (and the larger perspective of indigenous interest in local resources, and respect for a pre-existing treaty that wasn't quite honored -- these folks aren't primitives or hippies, they know very well this is a political process in the real world).
      - michaelmrose 7y ago
        The majority of the indigenous interests support the telescope. This is about a minority of a group trying to gain status at the expense of everyone's interests.
- Beltiras 7y ago
  They would equally oppose a luxury hotel or a housing development.
DiogenesKynikos 7y ago
Yes, the ability to protest is great. That doesn't mean that this particular protest is well grounded or positive. TMT has fallen victim to an entirely unrelated political issue: the Hawaiian independence movement. There are people who believe that Hawaii is not legally/morally part of the United States, and they've chosen TMT as a highly visible project they can block, in order to assert sovereignty. They make a number of claims to justify blocking TMT in particular. Their environmental claims are nonsense (nuclear-powered telescopes - imagine that!). They also claim that Mauna Kea is sacred to native Hawaiians, so that building a telescope there is desecration. That claim is actually extremely dubious, from a historical point of view. While going to the summit was taboo for most people in old Hawaii (as were many activities, such as men and women eating together), native Hawaiians also dug the largest rock quarry in all of Polynesia on Mauna Kea. There is also surprisingly little mention of Mauna Kea in extant chants from the old religion. But it's an oral tradition, so definitively proving that Mauna Kea wasn't as sacred as anti-TMT protesters claim is impossible. What's important is that the independence movement has made Mauna Kea's supposed sacredness a central part of their creed. It's a sad situation, because TMT has the law on its side, and even with all the will in the world to accommodate opponents, TMT has no power to grant their central demand - independence from the US. The protesters fundamentally just want to block TMT entirely, as a statement about sovereignty over the mountain, and over Hawaii more broadly.
JamesSchriver 7y ago
"But authoritarianism is so much more effective at enforcing my will" … the sentiment in all the halls of all our pseudo-intellectual institutions that have been coopted and commandeered by communists over many decades … which turns out is rather easy due to some interesting phenomenons that actually make "intellectual" and "educated" people far more susceptible to con jobs, propaganda, and general lies that are simply clad in academic appearing wrapping. The liberal arts in particular seems well beyond vulnerable, even willing and wanting to be deceived at the rates that it has been shown it is possible to deceive them with utter nonsense; from sociology to economics to {fill in the blank} studies to psychology (the most ironic of them all). How that relates to this subject, is that China (CCP) has learned quite well that the way to manipulate the cadre of influential and bottomlessly naive academics into allegiance with them, is to give academics shiny things they want like a carrot dangled before a donkey. A long standing and quite successful operation of this soft and system infiltrating power has been the panda program at the Smithsonian Zoo (including the other locations around the USA). Academics and "intellectuals" and liberals thing it's "cultural exchange" and makes them feel all warm and fuzzy in their xenophilic little hearts; while the CCP/China see it as the vehicle to win their "hearts and minds" as a delivery vehicle to push various other injections of subversion, influence, and control. It's quite a both fascinating and impressive operation, especially since it requires immense dedication, focus, and confidence over long periods … something the USA simply does not have a capacity for, especially in the modern age.
president 7y ago
It is only great during a time when there is no instability between nations (which is not the case today). When you have nations that are vying to become a hegemonic world power , your own nation better be as damn efficient in building out its capabilities and protecting itself.
ubuntu12 7y ago
India is very democratic, but most people aren't educated and don't care about science. Now look at their moon lander.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

TomMarius 7y ago

I don't really see opposition to progress as great. But I mean that in general sense, there are some limits, and I know nothing about this specific case.

zo1 7y ago
It's good that they can voice their opposition. It's bad to you that they're opposing progress according to your definition of progress. There is a distinction. The other side of this is that there is an element of obstructionism built into the model of democracy. Too much process, back and forth, judge-intervention, lawsuits, counter-lawsuits, voting and representation, etc. It would be ideal if we simply allowed everyone to vote on it, and go with the majority outcome.
- mc32 7y ago
  Affording ourselves insight into the cosmos I think is unreservedly progressive. If Paris can move graveyards and cemeteries underground for progress, surely something similar can be arranged to enable progress on the one hand and afford people the ability to honor their ancestors and culture.
  - zo1 7y ago
    Oh, don't get me wrong. I fully agree that looking and moving towards the stars is progress we should be working towards and doing so delicately if necessary. There are too many fixable and silly-things happening in the world today that absolutely demolish our ability to progress as a society.
Gabriel_Martin 7y ago
I took your comment to mean, and I agree, that progress is subjective. For example if I oppose mining pits which utilize child labor, I would effectively be opposing the progress of technology which require the rare minerals that come out of them. Still progress though.
cicero 7y ago
Unopposed progress is why we are now having concerns about the environment.
- hangonhn 7y ago
  A wise comment befitting an account with that name.

bart_spoon 7y ago

People expressing different perspectives and influencing decisions isn't an absolute good. It certainly can be positive and desireable in many situations. In others it can be utterly destructive, such as the the anti-vax movement or climate change skeptics.

CharlesColeman 7y ago
> People expressing different perspectives and influencing decisions isn't an absolute good. I would say it is, as long as they're being honest (even if you judge their honest position to be wrong).
- Phenix88be 7y ago
  This was true for the ancien Grec, but in the 21 century manipulation at large scale are really efficient thanks to the technology. People honestly believe that vaccine cause autism and it doesn't change the problem it bring to the rests of us.
  - authoritarian 7y ago
    >People honestly believe that vaccine cause autism These are also the scumbags that feed their autistic children bleach causing them to poop out their own stomach lining, and the parents think they are removing "autism worms"
cgriswald 7y ago
I don't think it is utterly destructive in the anti-vax movement. Dangerous and stupid, sure, but what if the government was trying to force you to put something else in your body that you thought was not in your best interests or that of your child? Isn't it an absolute good that you're able to speak up and resist?
- echelon 7y ago
  > force you to put something else in your body that you thought was not in your best interests or that of your child? It's not in the best interest of other children to let your children not be immunized. One of the reasons immunizations work so well is because of herd immunity. The entire population doesn't need to be inoculated against every random mutation the virus will take. Enough of the population has good enough immunity that the virus can't take a foothold. But once you dip below a certain percentage, the virus gets free rein to spread and evolve again. Effective immunization requires that we all mostly get immunized.

malms 7y ago

this is literally nimby

CharlesColeman 7y ago
As I understand it, the opposition to the TMT isn't a NIMBY issue: it's more about a historically ignored group trying to gain influence over issues it cares about.
- malms 7y ago
  it's still nimby too
  - ajross 7y ago
    Not really. As typically used "NIMBY" has a component of hypocrisy. Just not wanting something to happen is "opposition". "Not in my backyard" connotes the idea that someone supports some project in principle, but not when it affects them directly. "I like wind power, but not when it blocks the view of my cottage", "I like high density housing, but not if it affects my property values", "I like mass transit, but don't want a subway station in my neighborhood." In this case, "I don't want another giant telescope on my culture's sacred mountain" isn't about astronomy at all, it's about the culture (and the larger perspective of indigenous interest in local resources, and respect for a pre-existing treaty that wasn't quite honored -- these folks aren't primitives or hippies, they know very well this is a political process in the real world).
    - michaelmrose 7y ago
      The majority of the indigenous interests support the telescope. This is about a minority of a group trying to gain status at the expense of everyone's interests.
Beltiras 7y ago
They would equally oppose a luxury hotel or a housing development.

DiogenesKynikos 7y ago

Yes, the ability to protest is great. That doesn't mean that this particular protest is well grounded or positive. TMT has fallen victim to an entirely unrelated political issue: the Hawaiian independence movement. There are people who believe that Hawaii is not legally/morally part of the United States, and they've chosen TMT as a highly visible project they can block, in order to assert sovereignty. They make a number of claims to justify blocking TMT in particular. Their environmental claims are nonsense (nuclear-powered telescopes - imagine that!). They also claim that Mauna Kea is sacred to native Hawaiians, so that building a telescope there is desecration. That claim is actually extremely dubious, from a historical point of view. While going to the summit was taboo for most people in old Hawaii (as were many activities, such as men and women eating together), native Hawaiians also dug the largest rock quarry in all of Polynesia on Mauna Kea. There is also surprisingly little mention of Mauna Kea in extant chants from the old religion. But it's an oral tradition, so definitively proving that Mauna Kea wasn't as sacred as anti-TMT protesters claim is impossible. What's important is that the independence movement has made Mauna Kea's supposed sacredness a central part of their creed. It's a sad situation, because TMT has the law on its side, and even with all the will in the world to accommodate opponents, TMT has no power to grant their central demand - independence from the US. The protesters fundamentally just want to block TMT entirely, as a statement about sovereignty over the mountain, and over Hawaii more broadly.

JamesSchriver 7y ago

"But authoritarianism is so much more effective at enforcing my will" … the sentiment in all the halls of all our pseudo-intellectual institutions that have been coopted and commandeered by communists over many decades … which turns out is rather easy due to some interesting phenomenons that actually make "intellectual" and "educated" people far more susceptible to con jobs, propaganda, and general lies that are simply clad in academic appearing wrapping. The liberal arts in particular seems well beyond vulnerable, even willing and wanting to be deceived at the rates that it has been shown it is possible to deceive them with utter nonsense; from sociology to economics to {fill in the blank} studies to psychology (the most ironic of them all). How that relates to this subject, is that China (CCP) has learned quite well that the way to manipulate the cadre of influential and bottomlessly naive academics into allegiance with them, is to give academics shiny things they want like a carrot dangled before a donkey. A long standing and quite successful operation of this soft and system infiltrating power has been the panda program at the Smithsonian Zoo (including the other locations around the USA). Academics and "intellectuals" and liberals thing it's "cultural exchange" and makes them feel all warm and fuzzy in their xenophilic little hearts; while the CCP/China see it as the vehicle to win their "hearts and minds" as a delivery vehicle to push various other injections of subversion, influence, and control. It's quite a both fascinating and impressive operation, especially since it requires immense dedication, focus, and confidence over long periods … something the USA simply does not have a capacity for, especially in the modern age.

president 7y ago

It is only great during a time when there is no instability between nations (which is not the case today). When you have nations that are vying to become a hegemonic world power , your own nation better be as damn efficient in building out its capabilities and protecting itself.

ubuntu12 7y ago

India is very democratic, but most people aren't educated and don't care about science. Now look at their moon lander.