6 ms·

Calling them currrency is already a scam. They are not a currency. They are hardly money (look up the difference yourself), because you mostly can’t buy stuff w

by WA 7y ago

Calling them currrency is already a scam. They are not a currency. They are hardly money (look up the difference yourself), because you mostly can’t buy stuff with it. And for sure, you can’t pay taxes with them. I read a great question here on HN a while back to enthusiasts: If you were the last person in earth to receive coins, would you still like them and endorse them? So many comments can be traced to the idea of becoming richer. Compare this to the Euro: When the Euro was introduced as a currency in the EU in 2001, people gave zero fucks whether they were first to exchange their old currency for the new one or the last.

michwill 7y ago
> you mostly can’t buy stuff with it Sometimes I cannot buy legitimate stuff without them. Just today, I bought some books for which US credit/debit cards refused to work. And I see that every week. > you can’t pay taxes with them https://techcrunch.com/2018/11/25/ohio-becomes-the-first-state-to-accept-bitcoin-for-tax-payments/ https://techcrunch.com/2018/11/25/ohio-becomes-the-first-sta...
- qnr 7y ago
  I usually don't go out of my way to pay with bitcoin, but recently needed to buy a PSN prepaid card and every website I tried either declined my 2 credit cards and paypal outright or requested some ridiculous verification (record myself on camera holding a passport to my face? To buy a $10 prepaid card? No thanks) In the end I stumbled upon a shop that accepted bitcoin and got my PSN card in the time it took to get one network confirmation.
malux85 7y ago
I buy heaps of stuff with bitcoin. Not drugs or anything illegal, but computer equipment, membership fees, server hosting, domains and 2nd hand goods from friends. And you can pay your taxes with crypto: https://thenextweb.com/hardfork/2019/07/16/canadian-town-pay-taxes-cryptocurrency/ https://thenextweb.com/hardfork/2019/07/16/canadian-town-pay... Nothing is going to replace fiat overnight, but crypto is far from "not a currency"
- close04 7y ago
  > I buy heaps of stuff with bitcoin You're bartering for heaps of stuff. I get heaps of stuff by offering services or other stuff in exchange. Yet my services or other stuff are not a currency. And some towns accept taxes in form of community work for example which is also not a currency. > crypto is far from "not a currency" It's explicitly called "not a currency" by both Fed and the ECB as far as I know. Now it all boils down to whether you prefer your personal definition of currency over the one coming from central banks and laws. Alternative currencies are the same as alternative facts or alternative truth. They can have the same effect as the real thing and be used successfully achieve the same purpose. But they shouldn't be confused.
  - Numberwang 7y ago
    Don't waste your energy on these people. Crypto/Keto/TheDonald people can not be reasoned with. Making arguments will not work.
  - miracle2k 7y ago
    Some people like Bitcoin and some people use it to pay for stuff, and they want to see more people like them, so they can transact in Bitcoin more. Some critics seem to like making frankly ill conceived semantic arguments about the academic definition of a currency (or on your case, appeals to authority), but it really has no relation to whether Bitcoin is going to succeed or not succeed.
    - close04 7y ago
      > Some people like [cigarettes] and some people use it to pay for stuff, and they want to see more people like them, so they can transact in [cigarettes] more. Therefore cigarettes are currency. Liking something is not an argument. > frankly ill conceived semantic arguments about the academic definition of a currency My argument is ill conceived because it's "just" based on the academic (legal) definition of currency? We truly do live in a world of "alternative truths” and “alternative facts” where using the actual definition of something in a relevant context is frowned upon.
feanaro 7y ago
> And for sure, you can’t pay taxes with them. This is a bad necessary condition for considering something a currency. I definitely cannot pay my taxes in USD. Does that mean USD is not a currency? Or did you mean that you have to be able to pay taxes with it somewhere? So, hypothetically, if someone founded a microstate which allowed paying taxes in Bitcoin, then it would become a currency? But that seems ridiculous given that it would have exactly zero impact on me unless I moved there so I don't think you meant that. As a matter of fact, I often (read: most of the time) cannot buy things using USD in my country. Yet I am a holder of USD and spend it when buying things in my country quite often. How so? Well, I sell the USD in exchange for my country's currency at the point of sale, just like Bitcoin.
- otabdeveloper4 7y ago
  > This is a bad necessary condition for considering something a currency. On the contrary! 'Money' is just IOU notes. What gives these IOU notes value is that governments use them for paying welfare and civil servant salaries, and in turn take them back when collecting taxes. > So, hypothetically, if someone founded a microstate which allowed paying taxes in Bitcoin, then it would become a currency? Yes. But with a caveat: the wealth of a government's welfare/civil servant class and the threat of its tax collectors is what gives currency value. The blockchain here is entirely superfluous, this hypothetical currency would be just as valuable regardless of whether a cryptocurrency scheme is used.
  - feanaro 7y ago
    > 'Money' is just IOU notes. So then the various cryptocurrencies fit the bill because a lot of people are willing to treat them as IOU notes among themselves. > What gives these IOU notes value is that governments use them for paying welfare and civil servant salaries, and in turn take them back when collecting taxes. But if some people are willing to treat a cryptocurrency as IOU notes, then that cryptocurrency is exchangeable for a currency like USD, EUR, etc, again allowing me to pay those taxes. This is no different than the case of me using USD to produce money for paying taxes to my own country which doesn't acknowledge USD, which you haven't addressed. > Yes. But with a caveat: the wealth of a government's welfare/civil servant class and the threat of its tax collectors is what gives currency value. I disagree. I agree with your initial point, though: money is just IOU notes. As long as there is someone willing to buy those IOU notes off of you, it's valuable.
zaphirplane 7y ago
> if you were the last person in earth to receive coins, would you still like them and endorse them? If I was the last person on earth, I wouldn’t care for gold, precious metals diamonds, stock, bonds, cash and a whole lot of other assets (+ other last person on earth issues)
- splintercell 7y ago
  You misunderstood the question. He said "last person on earth TO RECEIVE bitcoin", not "LAST PERSON on earth".
  - paggle 7y ago
    Well if I was the last person on earth to receive USD I wouldn’t be happy because that means I’d never be able to spend it on anything (if I did, that person would become a later recipient of USD).
    - asjw 7y ago
      You can easily convert them to another currency though
      - paggle 7y ago
        How? Then someone else would receive my USD.
splintercell 7y ago
> If you were the last person in earth to receive coins, would you still like them and endorse them? Are you being serious when you're asking that question? That question seems to be a product of an echo chamber. Anyways to answer your question, yes, why wouldn't you still receive and endorse them? The idea behind cryptocurrencies is follows: * Bitcoin is the cryptocurrency which is aimed to be the perfect store of value. Because it's fixed in supply and has the maximum network security, it serves as a backbone of the cryptocurrency ecosystem. Govts and pro-intervention economists don't like it, but Libertarians and (real) pro-free market economists love it. Even if you're the last person to receive bitcoin, it's still a better option because now you can save in a non-inflationary currency. * Ethereum and other smart contract platforms allow creation of decentralized contracts between people, this facilitates creation of a system which isn't tied or dependant on the state to enforce it. Even if you're the last person to receive Ethers or Tezos or Cardano, etc, you're acquiring it in order to use the network. It's like asking would you like to be the last person to receive the arcade machine tokens.
- asjw 7y ago
  Sorry, but even believing in God makes much more sense. Bitcoin was a product made to make rich people richer like Ponzi schemes or multilevel marketing.
Insanity 7y ago
A couple of shops (jewelry places mainly) and most food delivery services around me accept bitcoin. So I can use them as a currency. It's like duck typing. If it looks like a currency and behaves like a currency, it'd a currency! (Overly simplistic I know, but I'd challenge the idea that it outright can't be a currency)
- asjw 7y ago
  Nope. You're paying not in bitcoin, but in the value of those bitcoins converted to a legal currency. Otherwise those businesses are just avoiding taxes, it would be better to pay in gold, at least it has a stable price.
  - coralreef 7y ago
    The commodity being exchanged is the Bitcoin and the goods/services. If the business wants to hold the Bitcoin forever, they can. If they want to sell for USD, they can. Paying in Bitcoin is the same way you just described as "paying in gold".
rbreve 7y ago
You are not well informed, you can buy stuff with it and also can pay taxes with bitcoin, google "pay taxes with bitcoin"
spurdoman77 7y ago
If you were the last person on earth to receive USD banknotes, would you still endorse them?
- asjw 7y ago
  Of course. They are soft at touch, you can make origamis out of them or even eat them

by WA 7y ago

michwill 7y ago

> you mostly can’t buy stuff with it Sometimes I cannot buy legitimate stuff without them. Just today, I bought some books for which US credit/debit cards refused to work. And I see that every week. > you can’t pay taxes with them https://techcrunch.com/2018/11/25/ohio-becomes-the-first-state-to-accept-bitcoin-for-tax-payments/ https://techcrunch.com/2018/11/25/ohio-becomes-the-first-sta...

qnr 7y ago
I usually don't go out of my way to pay with bitcoin, but recently needed to buy a PSN prepaid card and every website I tried either declined my 2 credit cards and paypal outright or requested some ridiculous verification (record myself on camera holding a passport to my face? To buy a $10 prepaid card? No thanks) In the end I stumbled upon a shop that accepted bitcoin and got my PSN card in the time it took to get one network confirmation.

malux85 7y ago

I buy heaps of stuff with bitcoin. Not drugs or anything illegal, but computer equipment, membership fees, server hosting, domains and 2nd hand goods from friends. And you can pay your taxes with crypto: https://thenextweb.com/hardfork/2019/07/16/canadian-town-pay-taxes-cryptocurrency/ https://thenextweb.com/hardfork/2019/07/16/canadian-town-pay... Nothing is going to replace fiat overnight, but crypto is far from "not a currency"

close04 7y ago
> I buy heaps of stuff with bitcoin You're bartering for heaps of stuff. I get heaps of stuff by offering services or other stuff in exchange. Yet my services or other stuff are not a currency. And some towns accept taxes in form of community work for example which is also not a currency. > crypto is far from "not a currency" It's explicitly called "not a currency" by both Fed and the ECB as far as I know. Now it all boils down to whether you prefer your personal definition of currency over the one coming from central banks and laws. Alternative currencies are the same as alternative facts or alternative truth. They can have the same effect as the real thing and be used successfully achieve the same purpose. But they shouldn't be confused.
- Numberwang 7y ago
  Don't waste your energy on these people. Crypto/Keto/TheDonald people can not be reasoned with. Making arguments will not work.
- miracle2k 7y ago
  Some people like Bitcoin and some people use it to pay for stuff, and they want to see more people like them, so they can transact in Bitcoin more. Some critics seem to like making frankly ill conceived semantic arguments about the academic definition of a currency (or on your case, appeals to authority), but it really has no relation to whether Bitcoin is going to succeed or not succeed.
  - close04 7y ago
    > Some people like [cigarettes] and some people use it to pay for stuff, and they want to see more people like them, so they can transact in [cigarettes] more. Therefore cigarettes are currency. Liking something is not an argument. > frankly ill conceived semantic arguments about the academic definition of a currency My argument is ill conceived because it's "just" based on the academic (legal) definition of currency? We truly do live in a world of "alternative truths” and “alternative facts” where using the actual definition of something in a relevant context is frowned upon.

feanaro 7y ago

> And for sure, you can’t pay taxes with them. This is a bad necessary condition for considering something a currency. I definitely cannot pay my taxes in USD. Does that mean USD is not a currency? Or did you mean that you have to be able to pay taxes with it somewhere? So, hypothetically, if someone founded a microstate which allowed paying taxes in Bitcoin, then it would become a currency? But that seems ridiculous given that it would have exactly zero impact on me unless I moved there so I don't think you meant that. As a matter of fact, I often (read: most of the time) cannot buy things using USD in my country. Yet I am a holder of USD and spend it when buying things in my country quite often. How so? Well, I sell the USD in exchange for my country's currency at the point of sale, just like Bitcoin.

otabdeveloper4 7y ago
> This is a bad necessary condition for considering something a currency. On the contrary! 'Money' is just IOU notes. What gives these IOU notes value is that governments use them for paying welfare and civil servant salaries, and in turn take them back when collecting taxes. > So, hypothetically, if someone founded a microstate which allowed paying taxes in Bitcoin, then it would become a currency? Yes. But with a caveat: the wealth of a government's welfare/civil servant class and the threat of its tax collectors is what gives currency value. The blockchain here is entirely superfluous, this hypothetical currency would be just as valuable regardless of whether a cryptocurrency scheme is used.
- feanaro 7y ago
  > 'Money' is just IOU notes. So then the various cryptocurrencies fit the bill because a lot of people are willing to treat them as IOU notes among themselves. > What gives these IOU notes value is that governments use them for paying welfare and civil servant salaries, and in turn take them back when collecting taxes. But if some people are willing to treat a cryptocurrency as IOU notes, then that cryptocurrency is exchangeable for a currency like USD, EUR, etc, again allowing me to pay those taxes. This is no different than the case of me using USD to produce money for paying taxes to my own country which doesn't acknowledge USD, which you haven't addressed. > Yes. But with a caveat: the wealth of a government's welfare/civil servant class and the threat of its tax collectors is what gives currency value. I disagree. I agree with your initial point, though: money is just IOU notes. As long as there is someone willing to buy those IOU notes off of you, it's valuable.

zaphirplane 7y ago

> if you were the last person in earth to receive coins, would you still like them and endorse them? If I was the last person on earth, I wouldn’t care for gold, precious metals diamonds, stock, bonds, cash and a whole lot of other assets (+ other last person on earth issues)

splintercell 7y ago
You misunderstood the question. He said "last person on earth TO RECEIVE bitcoin", not "LAST PERSON on earth".
- paggle 7y ago
  Well if I was the last person on earth to receive USD I wouldn’t be happy because that means I’d never be able to spend it on anything (if I did, that person would become a later recipient of USD).
  - asjw 7y ago
    You can easily convert them to another currency though
    - paggle 7y ago
      How? Then someone else would receive my USD.

splintercell 7y ago

> If you were the last person in earth to receive coins, would you still like them and endorse them? Are you being serious when you're asking that question? That question seems to be a product of an echo chamber. Anyways to answer your question, yes, why wouldn't you still receive and endorse them? The idea behind cryptocurrencies is follows: * Bitcoin is the cryptocurrency which is aimed to be the perfect store of value. Because it's fixed in supply and has the maximum network security, it serves as a backbone of the cryptocurrency ecosystem. Govts and pro-intervention economists don't like it, but Libertarians and (real) pro-free market economists love it. Even if you're the last person to receive bitcoin, it's still a better option because now you can save in a non-inflationary currency. * Ethereum and other smart contract platforms allow creation of decentralized contracts between people, this facilitates creation of a system which isn't tied or dependant on the state to enforce it. Even if you're the last person to receive Ethers or Tezos or Cardano, etc, you're acquiring it in order to use the network. It's like asking would you like to be the last person to receive the arcade machine tokens.

asjw 7y ago
Sorry, but even believing in God makes much more sense. Bitcoin was a product made to make rich people richer like Ponzi schemes or multilevel marketing.

Insanity 7y ago

A couple of shops (jewelry places mainly) and most food delivery services around me accept bitcoin. So I can use them as a currency. It's like duck typing. If it looks like a currency and behaves like a currency, it'd a currency! (Overly simplistic I know, but I'd challenge the idea that it outright can't be a currency)

asjw 7y ago
Nope. You're paying not in bitcoin, but in the value of those bitcoins converted to a legal currency. Otherwise those businesses are just avoiding taxes, it would be better to pay in gold, at least it has a stable price.
- coralreef 7y ago
  The commodity being exchanged is the Bitcoin and the goods/services. If the business wants to hold the Bitcoin forever, they can. If they want to sell for USD, they can. Paying in Bitcoin is the same way you just described as "paying in gold".

rbreve 7y ago

You are not well informed, you can buy stuff with it and also can pay taxes with bitcoin, google "pay taxes with bitcoin"

spurdoman77 7y ago

If you were the last person on earth to receive USD banknotes, would you still endorse them?

asjw 7y ago
Of course. They are soft at touch, you can make origamis out of them or even eat them