6 ms·

I can't after how they turned on Stallman

komali2 7y ago
Turned on? Stallman just didn't learn, despite decades of people trying to convince him, that his behavior was counter to his very cause. His overt misogyny created barriers to free software development where there needn't be any - who wants to go into the office that has "knight for hot ladies" pasted on the door? All of that behavior is being addressed directly now and people aren't going to put up with it. RMS quirky as fuck. More than anything it's a shame he just couldn't pick up on that one social skill. Wired did a fairly decent write-up, although I disagree that his speaker's pack is convoluted. https://www.wired.com/story/richard-stallman-and-the-fall-of-the-clueless-nerd/ https://www.wired.com/story/richard-stallman-and-the-fall-of...
- lostjohnny 7y ago
  > Turned on? Stallman just didn't learn Same words a nazi would have used... > that his behavior was counter to his very cause. His behavior is his, you are you to think that yours is better? > who wants to go into the office that has "knight for hot ladies" I would! Because I can recognize a joke when I see one. I would not work with you though, because you're a fucking wazzock.
  - hutzlibu 7y ago
    "Because I can recognize a joke when I see one." Me, too. But I suppose, you are also not a women struggeling in a sexist nerd IT world? (and after hearing some storys it is not clear to me, if it really is a full joke) So I can understand, that women are offended by it. Also, the sign is by far not the only thing, people were offended by him.
    - hvis 7y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts In any case, RMS effectively got dismissed because of an email on a university-internal mailing list where he tried to defend the honor of a dead friend and colleague in a way that seemed appropriate to him at the time. But the wording triggered the attention of some overly sensitive SJW who decided it's a good enough offence to retaliate against using all the social media power that she could muster. The "hot ladies" stuff was tacked on later to try to justify the dismissal, as if it's not just the bad (but loud) media coverage that was the actual reason.
      - Spivak 7y ago
        You're not being very charitable here -- all the stuff that got tacked on was the answer to whether this was an isolated incident or not. Stallman's personal views are something that people involved in Free Software have been trying for years to downplay and sweep under the rug because RMS is Free Software to a large extent and every part of him affects people's image of the surrounding work. I love Free Software and I contribute a lot of code. I hope that RMS the archetype lives on in the mission of the FSF but that the grittier reality fades.
        hvis 7y ago
        What was an isolated incident? Sharing his opinions over email? Certainly not. Of course I'm not being charitable: the armchair warriors have tried (and, to a large extent, succeeded) to destroy the reputation of a man who we all, collectively, owe a lot to. Regarding the views, I hardly think that being picky about the semantics of the word "assault" is significant enough grounds for dismissal, and for the whole media outrage that happened. Nobody really tried "to downplay" his views because they are largely irrelevant to the work that FSF was and is doing. So they stayed as they were: personal views. The most frowned-upon of which he publicly renounced on his personal blog around the time the scandal broke out.
        komali2 7y ago
        I don't think anybody is interested in "destroying RMS' reputation." I think women are tired of men getting a pass for misogyny simply because they have great contributions. It just doesn't make up for their behavior. If anybody argues that his name should be struck from history, I'll argue against them. But he shouldn't be employed by MIT.
        hvis 7y ago
        > I don't think anybody is interested in "destroying RMS' reputation." Really? Look at this disgrace: https://twitter.com/sarahmei/status/1177030240951926784 https://twitter.com/sarahmei/status/1177030240951926784 But this lady has her audience, and she's pushing the right buttons. Personally, I care little what happens at MIT, but when it comes to FSF, this has gone way too far. Fire the whole board because of an email thread? Really?
    - lostjohnny 7y ago
      > Me, too. It doesn't look like that. > But I suppose, you are also not a women struggeling in a sexist nerd IT world? I'm not a woman, I'm also not a sexist nerd. And I know, having been a supporter of the free software since the mid 90s, having interacted with the first Luther Blisset group in Italy, having tried to build an Italian Linux distro in 1996 and been part in the hack community (I've been among the first to build and attend hack meetings conventions in Italy, you can read more about the first one here http://www.ecn.org/hackit98/faq.html http://www.ecn.org/hackit98/faq.html), that I've never met more women in tech than in the FSF circles. There were literally no women in tech back then, but there were more than a few of them interested in being part of a socio-political revolutionary platform such as the free software philosophy. I've personally taught a group of girls howto install Linux so they could teach to other people in the free Linux courses we gave in many community centers, back when Linux meant Slackware 1.0 (1.0.1 to be correct) and kernel 1.2.13. I've been a teacher for Rails girls whose motto is "Our aim is to give tools and a community for women to understand technology and to build their ideas" Because RMS and all the guys like him believed in inclusiveness and I believed it too, thanks to them.
  - komali2 7y ago
    > Same words a nazi would have used... Are you serious? What an absurd, unfair, bad faith characterization. I would expect comments like that on reddit or twitter, not here. You may have recongized the joke. Women at MIT expressed their displeasure with that and other things RMS had done. Do you believe those women's feelings were valid? Simple yes or no question that basically indicates whether you have empathy for people looking for inclusivity in the tech scene. > you're a fucking wazzock Can you please at the very least read the HN rules? You're coming onto this forum, it's pretty fucking rude to shit in it as you are doing.
- concordDance 7y ago
  > His overt misogyny Doesn't exist as far as I can tell. I have not seen any examples of RMS misogyny mentioned in ANY of the RMS threads on hackernews so far. What definition of "misogyny" are you using and what examples do you have that meet that definition?
  - komali2 7y ago
    The geek feminism wiki has done a great deal compiling the troublesome things RMS has done. https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman > Stallman has made many posts sympathizing with efforts to legalize some forms of child pornography. Among other things, they stated that he was "skeptical of the claim that voluntarily [sic] pedophilia harms children". These comments were defended by his supporters on Slashdot. As of 2016, there are reports of Stallman changing his views on the matter within the previous few years.[2] However, in 2018 he defended Cody Wilson, who later pled guilty to sex with an underage girl, with Stallman saying that the girl likely had "entirely willing sex with him." Stallman changed his original post but nevertheless still said it is "normal for adults to be physically attracted to adolescents" and that adults using trafficked children shouldn't be legally responsible. In 2019, Stallman posted an email to an MIT listserv about the allegation that MIT professor Marvin Minsky raped a 17-year-old girl, and due to public outcry he resigned from both MIT and the Free Software Foundation. > For many years, Richard has been doing a schtick about "St. Ignutius" that involves Sexist humor. His performance of this shtick in July 2009 sparked the EMACS virgins joke incident. > The "St. Ignutius" routine mentioned above has been performed relatively unchanged since the early 90s, as a commenter recounts on a blog post about the EMACS virgins joke. The commenter writes about seeing the routine when she was only 15, and how RMS singled her out several times during that performance: > He actually pointed to me in the back and proclaimed, into the mic, "A GIRL!" causing the audience to turn and look. Mortifying. Then he proceeded to gesture toward me every time he referred to "EMACS Virgins." (I cannot believe that he is still doing the same talk 10+ years later.) Do you have any empathy for how it would feel as a 15 year old girl surrounded by dudes to be in this position? > In a 2007 interview, he said: I don’t have any experience working with women in programming projects; I don’t think that any volunteered to work on Emacs or GCC. A number of women have contributed to GCC, including: Janis Johnson maintains the test suite and has been a contributor since 2001 Sandra Loosemore is the lead author of the GNU Library Reference Manual;[3] RMS is listed as her co-author. Dorit Nuzman made major contributions to loop scheduling and vectorization. Carolyn Tice is also mentioned as a contributor.

Turned on? Stallman just didn't learn, despite decades of people trying to convince him, that his behavior was counter to his very cause. His overt misogyny created barriers to free software development where there needn't be any - who wants to go into the office that has "knight for hot ladies" pasted on the door? All of that behavior is being addressed directly now and people aren't going to put up with it. RMS quirky as fuck. More than anything it's a shame he just couldn't pick up on that one social skill. Wired did a fairly decent write-up, although I disagree that his speaker's pack is convoluted. https://www.wired.com/story/richard-stallman-and-the-fall-of-the-clueless-nerd/ https://www.wired.com/story/richard-stallman-and-the-fall-of...

lostjohnny 7y ago
> Turned on? Stallman just didn't learn Same words a nazi would have used... > that his behavior was counter to his very cause. His behavior is his, you are you to think that yours is better? > who wants to go into the office that has "knight for hot ladies" I would! Because I can recognize a joke when I see one. I would not work with you though, because you're a fucking wazzock.
- hutzlibu 7y ago
  "Because I can recognize a joke when I see one." Me, too. But I suppose, you are also not a women struggeling in a sexist nerd IT world? (and after hearing some storys it is not clear to me, if it really is a full joke) So I can understand, that women are offended by it. Also, the sign is by far not the only thing, people were offended by him.
  - hvis 7y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moving_the_goalposts In any case, RMS effectively got dismissed because of an email on a university-internal mailing list where he tried to defend the honor of a dead friend and colleague in a way that seemed appropriate to him at the time. But the wording triggered the attention of some overly sensitive SJW who decided it's a good enough offence to retaliate against using all the social media power that she could muster. The "hot ladies" stuff was tacked on later to try to justify the dismissal, as if it's not just the bad (but loud) media coverage that was the actual reason.
    - Spivak 7y ago
      You're not being very charitable here -- all the stuff that got tacked on was the answer to whether this was an isolated incident or not. Stallman's personal views are something that people involved in Free Software have been trying for years to downplay and sweep under the rug because RMS is Free Software to a large extent and every part of him affects people's image of the surrounding work. I love Free Software and I contribute a lot of code. I hope that RMS the archetype lives on in the mission of the FSF but that the grittier reality fades.
      - hvis 7y ago
        What was an isolated incident? Sharing his opinions over email? Certainly not. Of course I'm not being charitable: the armchair warriors have tried (and, to a large extent, succeeded) to destroy the reputation of a man who we all, collectively, owe a lot to. Regarding the views, I hardly think that being picky about the semantics of the word "assault" is significant enough grounds for dismissal, and for the whole media outrage that happened. Nobody really tried "to downplay" his views because they are largely irrelevant to the work that FSF was and is doing. So they stayed as they were: personal views. The most frowned-upon of which he publicly renounced on his personal blog around the time the scandal broke out.
        komali2 7y ago
        I don't think anybody is interested in "destroying RMS' reputation." I think women are tired of men getting a pass for misogyny simply because they have great contributions. It just doesn't make up for their behavior. If anybody argues that his name should be struck from history, I'll argue against them. But he shouldn't be employed by MIT.
        hvis 7y ago
        > I don't think anybody is interested in "destroying RMS' reputation." Really? Look at this disgrace: https://twitter.com/sarahmei/status/1177030240951926784 https://twitter.com/sarahmei/status/1177030240951926784 But this lady has her audience, and she's pushing the right buttons. Personally, I care little what happens at MIT, but when it comes to FSF, this has gone way too far. Fire the whole board because of an email thread? Really?
  - lostjohnny 7y ago
    > Me, too. It doesn't look like that. > But I suppose, you are also not a women struggeling in a sexist nerd IT world? I'm not a woman, I'm also not a sexist nerd. And I know, having been a supporter of the free software since the mid 90s, having interacted with the first Luther Blisset group in Italy, having tried to build an Italian Linux distro in 1996 and been part in the hack community (I've been among the first to build and attend hack meetings conventions in Italy, you can read more about the first one here http://www.ecn.org/hackit98/faq.html http://www.ecn.org/hackit98/faq.html), that I've never met more women in tech than in the FSF circles. There were literally no women in tech back then, but there were more than a few of them interested in being part of a socio-political revolutionary platform such as the free software philosophy. I've personally taught a group of girls howto install Linux so they could teach to other people in the free Linux courses we gave in many community centers, back when Linux meant Slackware 1.0 (1.0.1 to be correct) and kernel 1.2.13. I've been a teacher for Rails girls whose motto is "Our aim is to give tools and a community for women to understand technology and to build their ideas" Because RMS and all the guys like him believed in inclusiveness and I believed it too, thanks to them.
- komali2 7y ago
  > Same words a nazi would have used... Are you serious? What an absurd, unfair, bad faith characterization. I would expect comments like that on reddit or twitter, not here. You may have recongized the joke. Women at MIT expressed their displeasure with that and other things RMS had done. Do you believe those women's feelings were valid? Simple yes or no question that basically indicates whether you have empathy for people looking for inclusivity in the tech scene. > you're a fucking wazzock Can you please at the very least read the HN rules? You're coming onto this forum, it's pretty fucking rude to shit in it as you are doing.
concordDance 7y ago
> His overt misogyny Doesn't exist as far as I can tell. I have not seen any examples of RMS misogyny mentioned in ANY of the RMS threads on hackernews so far. What definition of "misogyny" are you using and what examples do you have that meet that definition?
- komali2 7y ago
  The geek feminism wiki has done a great deal compiling the troublesome things RMS has done. https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman https://geekfeminism.wikia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman > Stallman has made many posts sympathizing with efforts to legalize some forms of child pornography. Among other things, they stated that he was "skeptical of the claim that voluntarily [sic] pedophilia harms children". These comments were defended by his supporters on Slashdot. As of 2016, there are reports of Stallman changing his views on the matter within the previous few years.[2] However, in 2018 he defended Cody Wilson, who later pled guilty to sex with an underage girl, with Stallman saying that the girl likely had "entirely willing sex with him." Stallman changed his original post but nevertheless still said it is "normal for adults to be physically attracted to adolescents" and that adults using trafficked children shouldn't be legally responsible. In 2019, Stallman posted an email to an MIT listserv about the allegation that MIT professor Marvin Minsky raped a 17-year-old girl, and due to public outcry he resigned from both MIT and the Free Software Foundation. > For many years, Richard has been doing a schtick about "St. Ignutius" that involves Sexist humor. His performance of this shtick in July 2009 sparked the EMACS virgins joke incident. > The "St. Ignutius" routine mentioned above has been performed relatively unchanged since the early 90s, as a commenter recounts on a blog post about the EMACS virgins joke. The commenter writes about seeing the routine when she was only 15, and how RMS singled her out several times during that performance: > He actually pointed to me in the back and proclaimed, into the mic, "A GIRL!" causing the audience to turn and look. Mortifying. Then he proceeded to gesture toward me every time he referred to "EMACS Virgins." (I cannot believe that he is still doing the same talk 10+ years later.) Do you have any empathy for how it would feel as a 15 year old girl surrounded by dudes to be in this position? > In a 2007 interview, he said: I don’t have any experience working with women in programming projects; I don’t think that any volunteered to work on Emacs or GCC. A number of women have contributed to GCC, including: Janis Johnson maintains the test suite and has been a contributor since 2001 Sandra Loosemore is the lead author of the GNU Library Reference Manual;[3] RMS is listed as her co-author. Dorit Nuzman made major contributions to loop scheduling and vectorization. Carolyn Tice is also mentioned as a contributor.