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Then imagine that there are some people who can't afford the food they need in the grocery store and are going to die. Alternatives and transparent pricing isn

by plughs 7y ago

Then imagine that there are some people who can't afford the food they need in the grocery store and are going to die. Alternatives and transparent pricing isn't going to make brain surgery affordable to the average consumer.

kbutler 7y ago
There are people who can't afford groceries now - we don't fund that by having the government pay for all groceries for everyone.
- sabujp 7y ago
  universal healthcare is sort of the equivalent of free food. What if your medical condition is malnourishment?
  - bhupy 7y ago
    Food stamps (or the equivalent value in cash). Now s/food/health
Spivak 7y ago
Solving the problem of care that a person can’t afford is a completely different issue than fixing the problem of routine affordable care being exorbitantly expensive.
kuzimoto 7y ago
According to Wikipedia, there are only .5% of all physicians in the US who can perform neurosurgery. So it's probably safe to say the demand for brain surgery is much higher than the supply. This incentivises people to become doctors that perform such complecated procedures as it takes a lot of time and a lot of money to be able to do those things. If you were to force doctors to perform work on people that can't afford it, then presumably they will earn less money. If they earn less money, there is less incentive to do that kind of work as they will pick something easier and more profitable. You will end up with fewer people to do brain surgery.
- rubidium 7y ago
  If money were the only incentive to life no one would become a schoool teacher. Your summary is missing something.
  - aianus 7y ago
    Someone will still become a school teacher, they'll just be incompetent at it: https://www.thestar.com/yourtoronto/education/2016/05/13/for-many-teachers-math-just-doesnt-add-up.html https://www.thestar.com/yourtoronto/education/2016/05/13/for...
  - kuzimoto 7y ago
    That is true, but if you're the type of person that likes to help others it's much easier to become a teacher than doctor. Also, if you are a doctor and your primary motivation is helping people, wouldn't you want to help many people with simple problems, than few people with highly complex problems (which most likely have a higher risk of failure)? There is already a shortage of doctors doing the easy stuff. I just don't see the incentive for doing difficult procedures other than with money.
    - tanr54ok 7y ago
      > Also, if you are a doctor and your primary motivation is helping people, wouldn't you want to help many people with simple problems, than few people with highly complex problems (which most likely have a higher risk of failure)? Your analysis completely falls flat here. Not all doctors are motivated by the same things and yet most of them would consider their primary motivation helping people. Neurosurgeons are a prime example. They would very much prefer few complex cases (not everyone gets a brain tumor thankfully) as their way to maximize benefit rather than manage cholesterol meds for 100s. Speciality surgeons by their nature are motivated by a certain degree of risk. The incentive for doing difficult procedures is often because they are challenging. Compensation for doctors in the US isn’t fully correlated with difficulty either... with no offense to my dermatology colleagues making more than most general surgery sub specialists.
maerF0x0 7y ago
No, but alternatives and transparent pricing allow us to weigh alternatives and to have an adult conversation about all of us will die someday (save singularity). Then we get to negotiate about what it's worth to extend that date of death forward 1, 2 .. N days for $N . Next we look to that "scorecard" (bank account) which is the value provided but not called upon and get to see if we can call in enough "favors" to afford the healthcare
bigtunacan 7y ago
Then imagine there is a government aid program to help those people. For the sake of argument we'll use the term "food stamps".
adrianN 7y ago
As I see it, there are two solutions. Either all medical costs are "free" for the consumer and paid for via a tax, or you have a proper insurance system where consumers participate in a transparent market for non-urgent medical care and buy insurance only for things they can't afford. The latter needs some extra regulations for emergency care where you can't compare prices.

by plughs 7y ago

kbutler 7y ago

There are people who can't afford groceries now - we don't fund that by having the government pay for all groceries for everyone.

sabujp 7y ago
universal healthcare is sort of the equivalent of free food. What if your medical condition is malnourishment?
- bhupy 7y ago
  Food stamps (or the equivalent value in cash). Now s/food/health

Spivak 7y ago

Solving the problem of care that a person can’t afford is a completely different issue than fixing the problem of routine affordable care being exorbitantly expensive.

kuzimoto 7y ago

According to Wikipedia, there are only .5% of all physicians in the US who can perform neurosurgery. So it's probably safe to say the demand for brain surgery is much higher than the supply. This incentivises people to become doctors that perform such complecated procedures as it takes a lot of time and a lot of money to be able to do those things. If you were to force doctors to perform work on people that can't afford it, then presumably they will earn less money. If they earn less money, there is less incentive to do that kind of work as they will pick something easier and more profitable. You will end up with fewer people to do brain surgery.

rubidium 7y ago
If money were the only incentive to life no one would become a schoool teacher. Your summary is missing something.
- aianus 7y ago
  Someone will still become a school teacher, they'll just be incompetent at it: https://www.thestar.com/yourtoronto/education/2016/05/13/for-many-teachers-math-just-doesnt-add-up.html https://www.thestar.com/yourtoronto/education/2016/05/13/for...
- kuzimoto 7y ago
  That is true, but if you're the type of person that likes to help others it's much easier to become a teacher than doctor. Also, if you are a doctor and your primary motivation is helping people, wouldn't you want to help many people with simple problems, than few people with highly complex problems (which most likely have a higher risk of failure)? There is already a shortage of doctors doing the easy stuff. I just don't see the incentive for doing difficult procedures other than with money.
  - tanr54ok 7y ago
    > Also, if you are a doctor and your primary motivation is helping people, wouldn't you want to help many people with simple problems, than few people with highly complex problems (which most likely have a higher risk of failure)? Your analysis completely falls flat here. Not all doctors are motivated by the same things and yet most of them would consider their primary motivation helping people. Neurosurgeons are a prime example. They would very much prefer few complex cases (not everyone gets a brain tumor thankfully) as their way to maximize benefit rather than manage cholesterol meds for 100s. Speciality surgeons by their nature are motivated by a certain degree of risk. The incentive for doing difficult procedures is often because they are challenging. Compensation for doctors in the US isn’t fully correlated with difficulty either... with no offense to my dermatology colleagues making more than most general surgery sub specialists.

maerF0x0 7y ago

No, but alternatives and transparent pricing allow us to weigh alternatives and to have an adult conversation about all of us will die someday (save singularity). Then we get to negotiate about what it's worth to extend that date of death forward 1, 2 .. N days for $N . Next we look to that "scorecard" (bank account) which is the value provided but not called upon and get to see if we can call in enough "favors" to afford the healthcare

bigtunacan 7y ago

Then imagine there is a government aid program to help those people. For the sake of argument we'll use the term "food stamps".

adrianN 7y ago

As I see it, there are two solutions. Either all medical costs are "free" for the consumer and paid for via a tax, or you have a proper insurance system where consumers participate in a transparent market for non-urgent medical care and buy insurance only for things they can't afford. The latter needs some extra regulations for emergency care where you can't compare prices.