7 ms·

Isn't the point of a lock just to keep honest people honest? I mean you can buy the world's sturdiest, more secure lock and attach it to the world's strongest

Isn't the point of a lock just to keep honest people honest? I mean you can buy the world's sturdiest, more secure lock and attach it to the world's strongest door, someone with a hammer can easily break a window. If someone is determined and willing, there really is nothing you can do to stop them from breaking into your house.

fuzz4lyfe 7y ago
>Isn't the point of a lock just to keep honest people honest? I mean you can buy the world's sturdiest, more secure lock and attach it to the world's strongest door, someone with a hammer can easily break a window. In my home, the locks and windows (laminated glass[0]) are hard enough to break that when you attempt to do so I have time to ready my firearm. Something like this would potentially allow someone to sneak up more quickly and perhaps undetected. When my family isn't home I don't really care if you break into my house, insurance will cover the loss. [0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2HxWn6eP74 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2HxWn6eP74
- RHSeeger 7y ago
  Out of curiosity, do you have a normal door lock on your door; one that uses the kind of key you can get a copy made of at home depot? If so, pretty much anyone can open it with a bump key and a couple seconds. You can see it in action here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0CIlwSxsvU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0CIlwSxsvU). His first try takes a bit longer than it should because he's turning too hard (simple mistake). Every attempt after that takes just a couple seconds.
  - fuzz4lyfe 7y ago
    I've got abloy protec 2's on all exterior doors in addition to door chains I use at night. https://securitysnobs.com/Abloy-Protec2-Single-Cylinder-w-Lockable-Thumbturn-Deadbolt.html https://securitysnobs.com/Abloy-Protec2-Single-Cylinder-w-Lo...
    - RHSeeger 7y ago
      Thanks for the link. That's a nice looking lock. Clearly removes the possibility of all the well known lock issues.
  - vonmoltke 7y ago
    > If so, pretty much anyone can open it with a bump key and a couple seconds. This guy claims that he was unable to bump Kwikset locks: https://www.frontrangelocksmith.com/blog/the-best-lock-for-your-home-is-your-lock-really-safe/ https://www.frontrangelocksmith.com/blog/the-best-lock-for-y...
matz1 7y ago
it keep those who are in between. Some people would steal if it easy but not if it hard.
JohnFen 7y ago
> Isn't the point of a lock just to keep honest people honest? No. Honest people don't need to be "kept honest". Locks have the same purpose as other security systems (including electronic ones like crypto, etc.). They aren't intended to (and can't) keep a determined attacker out. What they do is increase the cost (in terms of time, effort, risk, etc.) of gaining access. The point is -- as far as possible -- to make the cost of gaining access exceed the benefit that would be gained by that access.
- swiley 7y ago
  Maybe if you live in Baltimore or Detroit but in most of the US people really need a good reason to do that kind of thing. In college I had a friend who didn't even bother locking his door and always left his keys in his car and it was never a problem.
  - tanr54ok 7y ago
    The second half of your post is survivor bias. The first part of your post is pure hyperbole. There are plenty of places less crime ridden then Baltimore or Detroit where you absolutely have to lock your things or they are likely to get stolen. Pretty much any urban area in the US. Most suburbs as well if you park on the street. Kids will go down and just try doors. They have no intent of picking anything or forcible entry, just snatching the low hanging fruit. I have lived in northwestern Nebraska so I get it, there are places where you don’t have to ever lock your door.. that is the exception. To counter your friend: I lived in one of the lowest crime rate suburbs in the US. Stupidly left my door unlocked in an apartment parking lot overnight.. everything of value was cleaned out in the morning.
    - walrus01 7y ago
      This is not even a US specific issue. Vancouver, BC has a serious problem with (heroin, meth, cocaine) addicts and property crime. Theft from vehicles and from vehicles in supposedly "secure" underground parking garages is epidemic. No bicycle worth more than 50 dollars is safe locked in public, no matter what kind of lock it has on it.
doormannn 7y ago
There are doors... and there are doors https://youtu.be/ET9SNXpeORY https://youtu.be/ET9SNXpeORY
floatingatoll 7y ago
A primary point of a lock is to keep people from acting impulsively. Consider these scenarios, ordered by decreasing likelihood of "yes, you would peek your head in" — or "yes, you would slip in and steal something": If your neighbor leaves their door open, do you peek your head in out of curiosity? If your neighbor leaves their door unlocked, do you open the door and peek your head in out of curiosity? If your neighbor locks their door with a combination of 1234, do you open the combination lock, open the door, and peek your head in out of curiosity? If your neighbor locks their door with a radio-frequency lock, do you install an app to capture their lock signal and replay it later, open the door, and peek your head in out of curiosity? None of these protect against a determined attacker, but they absolutely do protect against impulsive "low risk, high opportunity" actions.
- dual_basis 7y ago
  If the door is open and that is an unusual occurance, sure, I would knock on the door frame and call out to make sure they are alright / didn't forget to close the door, etc. For every other situation, no, I wouldn't.
  - floatingatoll 7y ago
    Yes, thankfully, closed doors are enough for most people to curb their curiosity :)
    - dual_basis 7y ago
      I'm just not all that curious, to be honest. It doesn't need to be curbed, I don't care what you have in your house. Is this really a motivation that other people feel?
      - floatingatoll 7y ago
        Yes. Not as many, but a few!
sliken 7y ago
My pet peeve is smart dead bolts. Presumably if you have a dead bolt you are worried enough about security to pay for a lock that's stronger and harder to subvert than a normal door knob lock. After all using 2 keys/locks is a hassle every time you open the door. Presumably because you don't want anyone with a shim/credit card to just pop your latch. Most would expect a dead bolt to survive a 5 second attack from a 10 year old without specialized tools. It's sadly common to see a $150 "smart" dead bolt with dramatically less physical security than a $25 dumb dead bolt. Some have plastic cases, easily popped off. Others have plastic gears, easily over torqued. If a kid with a screwdriver can just insert the screwdriver into the keyhole and rotate and open the door you might as well not have a dead bolt.
- war1025 7y ago
  I (and I assumed everyone with a dead bolt) only ever lock the dead bolt. What's the point of locking the door handle if there is a dead bolt?
  - journalctl 7y ago
    I mean, it’s there; you might as well.
    - sroussey 7y ago
      Deadbolt only guy here too.
  - ridaj 7y ago
    When someone is trying to break into a house, they might have to do it fast, so that they don't get noticed. If they need to pick two locks instead of one, it's costing them twice the time, so by locking the handle in addition to the deadbolt, you're increasing your security by making your door a bit more of a pain for someone to break into.
    - tanr54ok 7y ago
      Who picks a lock to break in? Common thieves have no need to pick locks.. totally dumb for a couple reasons. Contrary to popular nerd belief... door locks in the US are not that easy to pick. Many have anti pick features like reverse sidebars that while not impenetrable increase time or skill required. While the lockpickinglawyer has videos, note that he is extremely skilled with tons of practice, it still can take more time than breaking, and those aren’t field conditions. Just break the door in... stealing might as well use forcible entry. Where picking is useful is covert spying, and if that is your threat model the addition of the second or third lock doesn’t really mean much.
fyfy18 7y ago
Take a look at some of the European armoured doors, especially those in Italy. The door and frame come as a single piece, where the frame is made from hardened steel. I assume the door is too, but they are covered in some sort of veneer. There is a basic cylinder lock which needs a 90 degree turn from the key outside, or the knob inside. Then there is the deadbolt mechanism which needs to be turned five or so times, and drives 1/2" steel bolts deep into the frame. http://is.alicdn.com/img/pb/172/617/299/299617172_794.jpg http://is.alicdn.com/img/pb/172/617/299/299617172_794.jpg (Something like "normal", but this is a cheap Chinese knock off) A few years ago a neighbour called the police because their son had locked himself in the apartment and they thought he was a suicide risk. They brought in the fire department to break in, but rather than cutting through the door, it was easier for them to cut through the masonry wall. Windows here are typically just as secure with triple glazing and multi-point locking as standard, and this was the third floor.
- 2rsf 7y ago
  > cut through the masonry wall some emergency services uses an hydraulic device [1] to open steel doors [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjluIosPWiA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjluIosPWiA
peterwwillis 7y ago
Of the places I've lived, the back window has been kicked in, the rooftop door has been unlocked, windows pried, and previous roommates broke into others' rooms to steal stuff.
Iv 7y ago
You can always break in somewhere given time and tools. But like the old saying goes, you don't need to overrun the tiger, you need to overrun the other guy. If a robber has to choose between a locked door and an unlocked door, they will chose the unlocked one. I used to live in an apartment with a door that was so bad that the previous tenant had to add a second lock just to keep it closed, but one day a burglar came and robbed my neighbor. Discussing about why they chose his rather than mine he noticed "from the outside, it looks like you have hardened your door with a second lock". And yes, you can break windows (if you have easily accessible windows) but a broken window is a much clearer sign of something going wrong than an opened door.
jmnicolas 7y ago
After a break-in I had the most disheartening conversation with the Police : - put an alarm : they're either too fast to care or they deactivate it - get a dog : they poison it - bullet proof door + security lock : they break the wall etc
Cthulhu_ 7y ago
Yup; I think an important aspect to look out for with locks is whether or not you have to damage / destroy them to get in, because if they do then you have evidence of a break-in meaning the insurance company will pay out. If you have a burglary (for example) done by shims or lockpicks they can claim fraud / no evidence of a break-in and not pay out. I'd even go as far to say that for burglars it's important to leave traces of a break-in so that the victim can claim insurance.
Aozi 7y ago
>If someone is determined and willing, there really is nothing you can do to stop them from breaking into your house. Yes and no. If someone desperately wants to rob you, and precisely you, then yeah they will most likely be able to break in. However that doesn't mean we should make it easy for them. The longer it takes to bypass my lock and security, the more noise they make, the more destruction they leave behind the more likely it is that someone will notice them and call the cops. The more likely it is that they leave something behind that can be used to trace them, etc. The bigger reason to get quality locks is that criminals often target places with weak security, because hitting those location is easy. A burglar for example will usually case out a location they're targeting to figure out what they need to bring for the actual burglarly. Now if I have SuperArmorMax extra secure lock that takes the burglar an hour to bypass with power tools, but my neighbor has an aluminum smartlock that can be bypassed in 5 seconds with a regular drill, which do you think the burglar will target? Sure they could also break windows, or try other more destructive entry methods, but those are much louder and rouse more suspoicions from other people. You want to be quick and minimize the time you spend doing something shady. And again, you shouldn't make things easy just because a determined attacker can get through it, at least make them work for it.
tinus_hn 7y ago
No, because then we would all be using wafer locks on our front doors. There’s a balance between strength and price here.

fuzz4lyfe 7y ago

>Isn't the point of a lock just to keep honest people honest? I mean you can buy the world's sturdiest, more secure lock and attach it to the world's strongest door, someone with a hammer can easily break a window. In my home, the locks and windows (laminated glass[0]) are hard enough to break that when you attempt to do so I have time to ready my firearm. Something like this would potentially allow someone to sneak up more quickly and perhaps undetected. When my family isn't home I don't really care if you break into my house, insurance will cover the loss. [0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2HxWn6eP74 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z2HxWn6eP74

RHSeeger 7y ago
Out of curiosity, do you have a normal door lock on your door; one that uses the kind of key you can get a copy made of at home depot? If so, pretty much anyone can open it with a bump key and a couple seconds. You can see it in action here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0CIlwSxsvU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0CIlwSxsvU). His first try takes a bit longer than it should because he's turning too hard (simple mistake). Every attempt after that takes just a couple seconds.
- fuzz4lyfe 7y ago
  I've got abloy protec 2's on all exterior doors in addition to door chains I use at night. https://securitysnobs.com/Abloy-Protec2-Single-Cylinder-w-Lockable-Thumbturn-Deadbolt.html https://securitysnobs.com/Abloy-Protec2-Single-Cylinder-w-Lo...
  - RHSeeger 7y ago
    Thanks for the link. That's a nice looking lock. Clearly removes the possibility of all the well known lock issues.
- vonmoltke 7y ago
  > If so, pretty much anyone can open it with a bump key and a couple seconds. This guy claims that he was unable to bump Kwikset locks: https://www.frontrangelocksmith.com/blog/the-best-lock-for-your-home-is-your-lock-really-safe/ https://www.frontrangelocksmith.com/blog/the-best-lock-for-y...

matz1 7y ago

it keep those who are in between. Some people would steal if it easy but not if it hard.

JohnFen 7y ago

> Isn't the point of a lock just to keep honest people honest? No. Honest people don't need to be "kept honest". Locks have the same purpose as other security systems (including electronic ones like crypto, etc.). They aren't intended to (and can't) keep a determined attacker out. What they do is increase the cost (in terms of time, effort, risk, etc.) of gaining access. The point is -- as far as possible -- to make the cost of gaining access exceed the benefit that would be gained by that access.

swiley 7y ago
Maybe if you live in Baltimore or Detroit but in most of the US people really need a good reason to do that kind of thing. In college I had a friend who didn't even bother locking his door and always left his keys in his car and it was never a problem.
- tanr54ok 7y ago
  The second half of your post is survivor bias. The first part of your post is pure hyperbole. There are plenty of places less crime ridden then Baltimore or Detroit where you absolutely have to lock your things or they are likely to get stolen. Pretty much any urban area in the US. Most suburbs as well if you park on the street. Kids will go down and just try doors. They have no intent of picking anything or forcible entry, just snatching the low hanging fruit. I have lived in northwestern Nebraska so I get it, there are places where you don’t have to ever lock your door.. that is the exception. To counter your friend: I lived in one of the lowest crime rate suburbs in the US. Stupidly left my door unlocked in an apartment parking lot overnight.. everything of value was cleaned out in the morning.
  - walrus01 7y ago
    This is not even a US specific issue. Vancouver, BC has a serious problem with (heroin, meth, cocaine) addicts and property crime. Theft from vehicles and from vehicles in supposedly "secure" underground parking garages is epidemic. No bicycle worth more than 50 dollars is safe locked in public, no matter what kind of lock it has on it.

doormannn 7y ago

There are doors... and there are doors https://youtu.be/ET9SNXpeORY https://youtu.be/ET9SNXpeORY

floatingatoll 7y ago

A primary point of a lock is to keep people from acting impulsively. Consider these scenarios, ordered by decreasing likelihood of "yes, you would peek your head in" — or "yes, you would slip in and steal something": If your neighbor leaves their door open, do you peek your head in out of curiosity? If your neighbor leaves their door unlocked, do you open the door and peek your head in out of curiosity? If your neighbor locks their door with a combination of 1234, do you open the combination lock, open the door, and peek your head in out of curiosity? If your neighbor locks their door with a radio-frequency lock, do you install an app to capture their lock signal and replay it later, open the door, and peek your head in out of curiosity? None of these protect against a determined attacker, but they absolutely do protect against impulsive "low risk, high opportunity" actions.

dual_basis 7y ago
If the door is open and that is an unusual occurance, sure, I would knock on the door frame and call out to make sure they are alright / didn't forget to close the door, etc. For every other situation, no, I wouldn't.
- floatingatoll 7y ago
  Yes, thankfully, closed doors are enough for most people to curb their curiosity :)
  - dual_basis 7y ago
    I'm just not all that curious, to be honest. It doesn't need to be curbed, I don't care what you have in your house. Is this really a motivation that other people feel?
    - floatingatoll 7y ago
      Yes. Not as many, but a few!

sliken 7y ago

My pet peeve is smart dead bolts. Presumably if you have a dead bolt you are worried enough about security to pay for a lock that's stronger and harder to subvert than a normal door knob lock. After all using 2 keys/locks is a hassle every time you open the door. Presumably because you don't want anyone with a shim/credit card to just pop your latch. Most would expect a dead bolt to survive a 5 second attack from a 10 year old without specialized tools. It's sadly common to see a $150 "smart" dead bolt with dramatically less physical security than a $25 dumb dead bolt. Some have plastic cases, easily popped off. Others have plastic gears, easily over torqued. If a kid with a screwdriver can just insert the screwdriver into the keyhole and rotate and open the door you might as well not have a dead bolt.

war1025 7y ago
I (and I assumed everyone with a dead bolt) only ever lock the dead bolt. What's the point of locking the door handle if there is a dead bolt?
- journalctl 7y ago
  I mean, it’s there; you might as well.
  - sroussey 7y ago
    Deadbolt only guy here too.
- ridaj 7y ago
  When someone is trying to break into a house, they might have to do it fast, so that they don't get noticed. If they need to pick two locks instead of one, it's costing them twice the time, so by locking the handle in addition to the deadbolt, you're increasing your security by making your door a bit more of a pain for someone to break into.
  - tanr54ok 7y ago
    Who picks a lock to break in? Common thieves have no need to pick locks.. totally dumb for a couple reasons. Contrary to popular nerd belief... door locks in the US are not that easy to pick. Many have anti pick features like reverse sidebars that while not impenetrable increase time or skill required. While the lockpickinglawyer has videos, note that he is extremely skilled with tons of practice, it still can take more time than breaking, and those aren’t field conditions. Just break the door in... stealing might as well use forcible entry. Where picking is useful is covert spying, and if that is your threat model the addition of the second or third lock doesn’t really mean much.

fyfy18 7y ago

Take a look at some of the European armoured doors, especially those in Italy. The door and frame come as a single piece, where the frame is made from hardened steel. I assume the door is too, but they are covered in some sort of veneer. There is a basic cylinder lock which needs a 90 degree turn from the key outside, or the knob inside. Then there is the deadbolt mechanism which needs to be turned five or so times, and drives 1/2" steel bolts deep into the frame. http://is.alicdn.com/img/pb/172/617/299/299617172_794.jpg http://is.alicdn.com/img/pb/172/617/299/299617172_794.jpg (Something like "normal", but this is a cheap Chinese knock off) A few years ago a neighbour called the police because their son had locked himself in the apartment and they thought he was a suicide risk. They brought in the fire department to break in, but rather than cutting through the door, it was easier for them to cut through the masonry wall. Windows here are typically just as secure with triple glazing and multi-point locking as standard, and this was the third floor.

2rsf 7y ago
> cut through the masonry wall some emergency services uses an hydraulic device [1] to open steel doors [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjluIosPWiA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjluIosPWiA

peterwwillis 7y ago

Of the places I've lived, the back window has been kicked in, the rooftop door has been unlocked, windows pried, and previous roommates broke into others' rooms to steal stuff.

Iv 7y ago

You can always break in somewhere given time and tools. But like the old saying goes, you don't need to overrun the tiger, you need to overrun the other guy. If a robber has to choose between a locked door and an unlocked door, they will chose the unlocked one. I used to live in an apartment with a door that was so bad that the previous tenant had to add a second lock just to keep it closed, but one day a burglar came and robbed my neighbor. Discussing about why they chose his rather than mine he noticed "from the outside, it looks like you have hardened your door with a second lock". And yes, you can break windows (if you have easily accessible windows) but a broken window is a much clearer sign of something going wrong than an opened door.

jmnicolas 7y ago

After a break-in I had the most disheartening conversation with the Police : - put an alarm : they're either too fast to care or they deactivate it - get a dog : they poison it - bullet proof door + security lock : they break the wall etc

Cthulhu_ 7y ago

Yup; I think an important aspect to look out for with locks is whether or not you have to damage / destroy them to get in, because if they do then you have evidence of a break-in meaning the insurance company will pay out. If you have a burglary (for example) done by shims or lockpicks they can claim fraud / no evidence of a break-in and not pay out. I'd even go as far to say that for burglars it's important to leave traces of a break-in so that the victim can claim insurance.

Aozi 7y ago

>If someone is determined and willing, there really is nothing you can do to stop them from breaking into your house. Yes and no. If someone desperately wants to rob you, and precisely you, then yeah they will most likely be able to break in. However that doesn't mean we should make it easy for them. The longer it takes to bypass my lock and security, the more noise they make, the more destruction they leave behind the more likely it is that someone will notice them and call the cops. The more likely it is that they leave something behind that can be used to trace them, etc. The bigger reason to get quality locks is that criminals often target places with weak security, because hitting those location is easy. A burglar for example will usually case out a location they're targeting to figure out what they need to bring for the actual burglarly. Now if I have SuperArmorMax extra secure lock that takes the burglar an hour to bypass with power tools, but my neighbor has an aluminum smartlock that can be bypassed in 5 seconds with a regular drill, which do you think the burglar will target? Sure they could also break windows, or try other more destructive entry methods, but those are much louder and rouse more suspoicions from other people. You want to be quick and minimize the time you spend doing something shady. And again, you shouldn't make things easy just because a determined attacker can get through it, at least make them work for it.

tinus_hn 7y ago

No, because then we would all be using wafer locks on our front doors. There’s a balance between strength and price here.