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>That is exactly what it means So I can't criticize law enforcement because I'm not a LEO? I can't criticize a politician because I'm not in politics? I can't

>That is exactly what it means So I can't criticize law enforcement because I'm not a LEO? I can't criticize a politician because I'm not in politics? I can't criticize a woman because I'm not female myself? I can't criticize a parrot owner because I don't own a bird? This is an absolutely ridiculous line of reasoning >People without children have absolutely no idea what they are talking about and have no means of acquiring that knowledge except by having a child So a male doctor can't be a gynecologist because they have "no idea what they are talking about and have no means of acquiring that knowledge except by having" female genetalia? I can't have any idea what it's like owning a parrot except by owning a bird? Again, this is absolutely absurd. Having a child does not enter you into some elite class of individuals that no one else can understand, and it's perfectly acceptable for me to criticize you despite not having children myself

Volundr 7y ago
Plus it ignores that we are all former children. Excepting of course those that aren't "former".
- magduf 7y ago
  Yeah, exactly: everyone should remember what it was like being a kid.
abtinf 7y ago
That fact that you make those comparisons shows how deeply ignorant you are on this subject. Being a parent is fundamentally different from every other aspect of human life. There is no amount of study that can help a non-parent form an informed view on the subject.
- MFLoon 7y ago
  I genuinely feel bad for your children. You see yourself as somehow metaphysically enlightened and beyond reproach by non-parents, just by virtue of having them - I can't imagine how tyrannical you are in your relationship with them.
  - abtinf 7y ago
    By this standard, people who have not had experience or learning in a given domain are just as qualified in that domain as those who have. It is a rejection of all knowledge.
    - MFLoon 7y ago
      > There is no amount of study that can help a non-parent form an informed view on the subject. > By this standard, people who have not had experience or learning in a given domain are just as qualified in that domain as those who have. So which is it, experience alone, or learning or experience?
    - rconti 7y ago
      Funny, your example was that people without kids have NO idea and their opinion has NO value. Not that it has LESS value. Then in your "given domain" example here, you're falsely claiming that we think the qualifications are precisely equal.
- okmokmz 7y ago
  Wow, you sound like a major, self centered narcissist at the very least. There is nothing special about having children, and there is nothing you can learn that I cannot. If you really do have children I feel bad for them. In another comment you said that if I'm really concerned about the environment I should kill myself. You clearly have some issues to work through, and I wish you the best
  - dang 7y ago
    Personal attacks like this are a bannable offense on HN. Moreover, you got into two of these petty flamewars on HN within 24 hours. That's seriously not ok, and it looks like you've done this in the past as well, so I've banned this account until we get some indication that you want to use HN as intended. If that's the case, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and say so. We're happy to unban anyone who gives us reason to believe that they'll follow the site guidelines in the future. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- dang 7y ago
  Flamewar and personal attack will get you banned here. Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html, and please do not post like this to HN again.
  - abtinf 7y ago
    My apologies, I’ll be more civil.
    - dang 7y ago
      Appreciated!
gbacon 7y ago
In the rational sense, you have a point. I’m sympathetic to your position. I wish people were better at calmly and dispassionately weighing facts and reason, but we are largely not. Your male OB example is really close to hitting a subject where people are sometimes angrily and even violently attached to their positions and on which some insist that men do not even have worthwhile opinions — merely because they are men. Similarly, others stake out positions that it is okay to “punch up” because they allege that ethics, propriety, and justice depend on group identity. These are utterly irrational by the same point that I believe you’re making, but knowing your audience is crucial. Good luck being heard on certain subjects. Parenting isn’t that extreme, but a strong emotional component is present. With criticism in general, if in the audience’s view you haven’t earned the right, then you’re just running your mouth. You may have heard of Powdered Butt Syndrome: anyone who has powdered your butt does not want your opinion on money or sex. Being a parent changes everything in ways that it’s difficult for non-parents to understand. Even if a non-parent accepts this on an intellectual level, the deeper visceral appreciation is still missing. Yes, being late is rude. Screaming children in a restaurant while others are trying to enjoy a meal is annoying. Parents should not allow their kids to behave like ill-mannered brats. To really oversimplify, becoming a parent tends to raise some parents’ tolerance to misbehavior. I can talk about gross topics over dinner that would have caused my pre-kids self to ask for a change of subject or to excuse myself from the table. Parenting can be exhausting. All relationships are challenging at times. Sometimes people choose to pick their battles. All that said, some parents dismiss advice or criticism from other parents too. It must be nice to have your perfect kids, live in your perfect neighborhood, and send them to their perfect school. What do you know about my situation? You have X and I don’t. I have Y and you don’t. Anyone can criticize to criticize. Doing it with love to actually help someone else is much more delicate.
jacobsenscott 7y ago
Of course anyone can criticize anything they want to. But generally they'll just sound stupid to anyone who actually knows the space. I've never heard a non-parent make a remotely sensible criticism about parenting. I've never heard a non-programmer make a sensible statement about programming, etc. Parents aren't an "elite class of individuals" - we simply have experience non-parents don't. Non-parents talking about parenting are as a rule hilarious examples of the Dunning–Kruger effect. (I'm not a psychologist, so psychologists would probably consider that last statement a hilarious example of the Dunning-Kruger effect :))
- MFLoon 7y ago
  > I've never heard a non-parent make a remotely sensible criticism about parenting Really? What about children of truly abusive parents (who are not themselves parents)? Are their critiques of their parents as parents not remotely sensible? I'm not at all in favor of people aggressively policing the parenting practices of others. I just don't think Dunning-Kruger applies at all here, because everyone (except orphans) has some significant experience with the practice of parenting - even if it is only as the parented, you can still form cogent opinions about the practice. It's not some high expertise domain like programming, it's literally human nature.
  - randlet 7y ago
    It doesn't even have to be as extreme as abuse. For example, non-parents and parents alike should feel free to be critical of parents who allow their kids to misbehave in a restaurant.
- kelnos 7y ago
  While I absolutely agree that there is a ton of bad behavior in the world from people ignorantly pontificating on things outside their wheelhouse, it is incredibly arrogant and ignorant to suggest that non-parents know nothing about parenting. It just doesn't even make logical sense. If you are constantly late for everything and always blame it on your kid, you are doing something wrong. You should know by now that things always take longer than expected with a kid, and plan accordingly. No, you will not always get it right, and that's fine. Occasional lapses are expected and accepted. But if it becomes a regular pattern, you are simply shifting blame for your poor time-management skills onto a child that does not deserve that finger pointed at them. If you are going to discount my opinion out of hand, I suppose I can't keep you from doing that. But, my opinion happens to agree with that of a parent upthread, so... take that as you will, I suppose.
koonsolo 7y ago
In my experience, the least informed always have the strongest opinions. The well informed see all te complexities and know "it's not that easy". Reminds me of this quote: “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wise people so full of doubts.”

Volundr 7y ago

Plus it ignores that we are all former children. Excepting of course those that aren't "former".

magduf 7y ago
Yeah, exactly: everyone should remember what it was like being a kid.

abtinf 7y ago

That fact that you make those comparisons shows how deeply ignorant you are on this subject. Being a parent is fundamentally different from every other aspect of human life. There is no amount of study that can help a non-parent form an informed view on the subject.

MFLoon 7y ago
I genuinely feel bad for your children. You see yourself as somehow metaphysically enlightened and beyond reproach by non-parents, just by virtue of having them - I can't imagine how tyrannical you are in your relationship with them.
- abtinf 7y ago
  By this standard, people who have not had experience or learning in a given domain are just as qualified in that domain as those who have. It is a rejection of all knowledge.
  - MFLoon 7y ago
    > There is no amount of study that can help a non-parent form an informed view on the subject. > By this standard, people who have not had experience or learning in a given domain are just as qualified in that domain as those who have. So which is it, experience alone, or learning or experience?
  - rconti 7y ago
    Funny, your example was that people without kids have NO idea and their opinion has NO value. Not that it has LESS value. Then in your "given domain" example here, you're falsely claiming that we think the qualifications are precisely equal.
okmokmz 7y ago
Wow, you sound like a major, self centered narcissist at the very least. There is nothing special about having children, and there is nothing you can learn that I cannot. If you really do have children I feel bad for them. In another comment you said that if I'm really concerned about the environment I should kill myself. You clearly have some issues to work through, and I wish you the best
- dang 7y ago
  Personal attacks like this are a bannable offense on HN. Moreover, you got into two of these petty flamewars on HN within 24 hours. That's seriously not ok, and it looks like you've done this in the past as well, so I've banned this account until we get some indication that you want to use HN as intended. If that's the case, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and say so. We're happy to unban anyone who gives us reason to believe that they'll follow the site guidelines in the future. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
dang 7y ago
Flamewar and personal attack will get you banned here. Please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html, and please do not post like this to HN again.
- abtinf 7y ago
  My apologies, I’ll be more civil.
  - dang 7y ago
    Appreciated!

gbacon 7y ago

In the rational sense, you have a point. I’m sympathetic to your position. I wish people were better at calmly and dispassionately weighing facts and reason, but we are largely not. Your male OB example is really close to hitting a subject where people are sometimes angrily and even violently attached to their positions and on which some insist that men do not even have worthwhile opinions — merely because they are men. Similarly, others stake out positions that it is okay to “punch up” because they allege that ethics, propriety, and justice depend on group identity. These are utterly irrational by the same point that I believe you’re making, but knowing your audience is crucial. Good luck being heard on certain subjects. Parenting isn’t that extreme, but a strong emotional component is present. With criticism in general, if in the audience’s view you haven’t earned the right, then you’re just running your mouth. You may have heard of Powdered Butt Syndrome: anyone who has powdered your butt does not want your opinion on money or sex. Being a parent changes everything in ways that it’s difficult for non-parents to understand. Even if a non-parent accepts this on an intellectual level, the deeper visceral appreciation is still missing. Yes, being late is rude. Screaming children in a restaurant while others are trying to enjoy a meal is annoying. Parents should not allow their kids to behave like ill-mannered brats. To really oversimplify, becoming a parent tends to raise some parents’ tolerance to misbehavior. I can talk about gross topics over dinner that would have caused my pre-kids self to ask for a change of subject or to excuse myself from the table. Parenting can be exhausting. All relationships are challenging at times. Sometimes people choose to pick their battles. All that said, some parents dismiss advice or criticism from other parents too. It must be nice to have your perfect kids, live in your perfect neighborhood, and send them to their perfect school. What do you know about my situation? You have X and I don’t. I have Y and you don’t. Anyone can criticize to criticize. Doing it with love to actually help someone else is much more delicate.

jacobsenscott 7y ago

Of course anyone can criticize anything they want to. But generally they'll just sound stupid to anyone who actually knows the space. I've never heard a non-parent make a remotely sensible criticism about parenting. I've never heard a non-programmer make a sensible statement about programming, etc. Parents aren't an "elite class of individuals" - we simply have experience non-parents don't. Non-parents talking about parenting are as a rule hilarious examples of the Dunning–Kruger effect. (I'm not a psychologist, so psychologists would probably consider that last statement a hilarious example of the Dunning-Kruger effect :))

MFLoon 7y ago
> I've never heard a non-parent make a remotely sensible criticism about parenting Really? What about children of truly abusive parents (who are not themselves parents)? Are their critiques of their parents as parents not remotely sensible? I'm not at all in favor of people aggressively policing the parenting practices of others. I just don't think Dunning-Kruger applies at all here, because everyone (except orphans) has some significant experience with the practice of parenting - even if it is only as the parented, you can still form cogent opinions about the practice. It's not some high expertise domain like programming, it's literally human nature.
- randlet 7y ago
  It doesn't even have to be as extreme as abuse. For example, non-parents and parents alike should feel free to be critical of parents who allow their kids to misbehave in a restaurant.
kelnos 7y ago
While I absolutely agree that there is a ton of bad behavior in the world from people ignorantly pontificating on things outside their wheelhouse, it is incredibly arrogant and ignorant to suggest that non-parents know nothing about parenting. It just doesn't even make logical sense. If you are constantly late for everything and always blame it on your kid, you are doing something wrong. You should know by now that things always take longer than expected with a kid, and plan accordingly. No, you will not always get it right, and that's fine. Occasional lapses are expected and accepted. But if it becomes a regular pattern, you are simply shifting blame for your poor time-management skills onto a child that does not deserve that finger pointed at them. If you are going to discount my opinion out of hand, I suppose I can't keep you from doing that. But, my opinion happens to agree with that of a parent upthread, so... take that as you will, I suppose.

koonsolo 7y ago

In my experience, the least informed always have the strongest opinions. The well informed see all te complexities and know "it's not that easy". Reminds me of this quote: “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wise people so full of doubts.”