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The CLOUD Act would do nothing in this case because Cloudflare doesn't store data related to your requests and claims they are regularly audited to prove that.

The CLOUD Act would do nothing in this case because Cloudflare doesn't store data related to your requests and claims they are regularly audited to prove that. CF has a lot more privacy minded people to whistle blow on that if they were lying than your local ISP would.

throw0101a 7y ago
Can they be forced to store data? People at Yahoo were monitoring e-mail on behest of the US government, and not even telling the company's CISO about it: * https://www.reuters.com/article/us-yahoo-nsa-exclusive-idUSKCN1241YT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-yahoo-nsa-exclusive-idUSK... * https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/10/report-fbi-andor-nsa-ordered-yahoo-to-build-secret-e-mail-search-tool/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/10/report-fbi-andor...
- tomschlick 7y ago
  I'm not sure. Going by the Apple example, they refused to create new code to do something they were not in the past. That limit made the courts agree with them that they could not be compelled to create something new. Yahoo / ISPs already have the data so they have to comply with the law by providing that data upon request.
  - throw0101a 7y ago
    > Yahoo / ISPs already have the data so they have to comply with the law by providing that data upon request. Data is being sent to CF: can they be forced to raise the logging level from "INFO" to "DEBUG"? See also Lavabit: > Lavabit is an open-source encrypted webmail service, founded in 2004. The service suspended its operations on August 8, 2013 after the U.S. Federal Government ordered it to turn over its Secure Sockets Layer (SSL) private keys, in order to allow the government to spy on Edward Snowden's email.[2][3][4][5] * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit
    - jachee 7y ago
      I imagine that at its scale, CF could legitimately claim technical limitations prevent them from collecting data at the volume of traffic that 1.1.1.1 gets.
      - nickpsecurity 7y ago
        With NSA's expert testimony, the FBI could legitimately claim that was BS and provide collection hardware to "assist" them. ;)
- nickpsecurity 7y ago
  "Can they be forced to store data?" Yes, the Core Secrets leak said the "FBI" would "compel" companies to "SIGINT-enable" their networks if in America. In the Lavabit case, the judge was cool with FBI's proposal to compromise all the users, not tell them about it, and business owner's revenue would be fine. If overseas, there was a spy/soldier group that would take espionage-style action against them. That's if a payment didn't work. I assume they backdoored all of them, including Apple, with them instructing the companies to hide that fact. They then use parallel construction for the important cases. The less-important cases would go through the regular system. The FBI made a big deal about that one phone to try to expand the All Writs Act to make their access easier. At this point, they probably have access to a lot of it but want their legal, observable powers to be expanded. That's how it works in a Dual State: a police state with a regular government you can defend against running side-by-side with a more powerful, secret government that can do whatever they want to many targets with secrecy and criminal immunity. Unlike previous Dual States, they restrict the targets and methods of the Deep State more to make its damage invisible to most voters. They think it won't hurt them, just deserving people. Meanwhile, they gradually shift more power previously afforded by the Deep State to the Public State while Deep State collects and passes more information over time to the enforcers of the Public State. The Snowden leaks confirmed both Deep State activities and the collaboration between the two with denials built in.

throw0101a 7y ago

Can they be forced to store data? People at Yahoo were monitoring e-mail on behest of the US government, and not even telling the company's CISO about it: * https://www.reuters.com/article/us-yahoo-nsa-exclusive-idUSKCN1241YT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-yahoo-nsa-exclusive-idUSK... * https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/10/report-fbi-andor-nsa-ordered-yahoo-to-build-secret-e-mail-search-tool/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/10/report-fbi-andor...

tomschlick 7y ago
I'm not sure. Going by the Apple example, they refused to create new code to do something they were not in the past. That limit made the courts agree with them that they could not be compelled to create something new. Yahoo / ISPs already have the data so they have to comply with the law by providing that data upon request.
- throw0101a 7y ago
  > Yahoo / ISPs already have the data so they have to comply with the law by providing that data upon request. Data is being sent to CF: can they be forced to raise the logging level from "INFO" to "DEBUG"? See also Lavabit: > Lavabit is an open-source encrypted webmail service, founded in 2004. The service suspended its operations on August 8, 2013 after the U.S. Federal Government ordered it to turn over its Secure Sockets Layer (SSL) private keys, in order to allow the government to spy on Edward Snowden's email.[2][3][4][5] * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavabit
  - jachee 7y ago
    I imagine that at its scale, CF could legitimately claim technical limitations prevent them from collecting data at the volume of traffic that 1.1.1.1 gets.
    - nickpsecurity 7y ago
      With NSA's expert testimony, the FBI could legitimately claim that was BS and provide collection hardware to "assist" them. ;)
nickpsecurity 7y ago
"Can they be forced to store data?" Yes, the Core Secrets leak said the "FBI" would "compel" companies to "SIGINT-enable" their networks if in America. In the Lavabit case, the judge was cool with FBI's proposal to compromise all the users, not tell them about it, and business owner's revenue would be fine. If overseas, there was a spy/soldier group that would take espionage-style action against them. That's if a payment didn't work. I assume they backdoored all of them, including Apple, with them instructing the companies to hide that fact. They then use parallel construction for the important cases. The less-important cases would go through the regular system. The FBI made a big deal about that one phone to try to expand the All Writs Act to make their access easier. At this point, they probably have access to a lot of it but want their legal, observable powers to be expanded. That's how it works in a Dual State: a police state with a regular government you can defend against running side-by-side with a more powerful, secret government that can do whatever they want to many targets with secrecy and criminal immunity. Unlike previous Dual States, they restrict the targets and methods of the Deep State more to make its damage invisible to most voters. They think it won't hurt them, just deserving people. Meanwhile, they gradually shift more power previously afforded by the Deep State to the Public State while Deep State collects and passes more information over time to the enforcers of the Public State. The Snowden leaks confirmed both Deep State activities and the collaboration between the two with denials built in.