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I really wish the author had sensed the limits of his argument, because I think the point he's trying to make is basically correct. He's just stretching it to

by human20190310 7y ago

I really wish the author had sensed the limits of his argument, because I think the point he's trying to make is basically correct. He's just stretching it to the breaking point by invoking Amazon and the subprime crisis. If he'd left the stretch goals out of it, it would have stood as a perfect foil to the avalanche of "meta-meta-meta analysis of everything except where the money's gonna come from" in the Stratechery article [0] also up on HN now. [0] https://stratechery.com/2019/neither-and-new-lessons-from-uber-and-vision-fund/ https://stratechery.com/2019/neither-and-new-lessons-from-ub...

legitster 7y ago
I can't recommend the Stratechery piece enough (or Stratechery in general).
- RodgerTheGreat 7y ago
  On the contrary, given the author's myopic and rosy perspective on surveillance capitalism as espoused in the article "Privacy Fundamentalism"[1] (and apparently amended in a follow-up which is paywalled), I find it hard to take anything on that blog seriously. [1]https://stratechery.com/2019/privacy-fundamentalism/ https://stratechery.com/2019/privacy-fundamentalism/
  - askafriend 7y ago
    Ben is one of the greatest thinkers in technology writing today - period. You're only depriving yourself of an important perspective in this case. He's open to arguments and is extremely reasonable. If you're only looking for writing that agrees with what you already believe then you might be disappointed, but if you're looking for extremely thoughtful thinking on strategy and technology then you won't find anyone better than Ben. It's not just a blog, it's a paid publication with a ton of research and effort behind it.
    - ryandrake 7y ago
      Which is why that article that OP points out is such an odd outlier. In contrast to the normally wonderful and insightful reading on that site, the one on privacy stood out as total defensiveness. I’m not going to condemn the author over just that one but it was weird!
      - munk-a 7y ago
        I agree, I'm pretty unfamiliar with that source personally but I did check out that article and was quite disappointed with the content of it... It didn't seem malignant but it was certainly quite ignorant of potential issues.
    - RodgerTheGreat 7y ago
      The article I referenced boils down to dismissing fears of online privacy invasion as alarmism. Exploring his own site's dependencies, Ben concludes that the third parties phoned home to for every visitor are probably harmless. He recommends that discourse focus on striking a balance between technology being convenient and secure, and not worrying too much. This essay reflects a profound failure of imagination with respect to the present and future of online tracking, and the risk it poses to consumers and citizens. This is an issue which is at the heart of the business models and strategy of the world's most powerful corporations, so in my opinion having this blind spot (or, perhaps, degree of ethical flexibility) seriously undermines the veracity and objectivity of his analysis in many areas.
      - ajb 7y ago
        This. Say some company found that they could pay landlords to let them borrow everyone's keys, and used them to go inside while you are out and stick an ad inside your bathroom where you will see it when you're taking a dump. Sure, the ad is harmless. But you can't just shrug it off because then you've accepted the principle that companies can pay your landlord for access to you and your house.
      - legitster 7y ago
        Wow. That is a SERIOUS mischaracterization of the article and his conculusions. The third parties in question were services like Stripe (since he monetizes with subscriptions, not advertising) or Cloudflare. His whole point was he takes privacy seriously, but fundamentalist policy punishes good and bad actors equally. But even all that aside, by your own words, it's not his treatments of the facts but his failure to account for the worst possible hypothetical situation that you have imagined in this specific area that is most important to you that makes him an unreliable journalist on any-and-all subjects? I would challenge you that this is an unhealthy purity test for him to pass.
  - legitster 7y ago
    > Again, this is not to say that privacy isn’t important: it is one of many things that are important. That, though, means that online privacy in particular should not be the end-all be-all but rather one part of a difficult set of trade-offs that need to be made when it comes to dealing with this new reality that is the Internet. Being an absolutist will lead to bad policy I don't understand, this article seems completely reasonable. He's asking people to think critically about their absolutist takes.
  - disjhshava 7y ago
    You're bringing up an unrelated article to make an ad-hominem attack on the author. Seems like a fundamentalist response to a heretic.
    - dredmorbius 7y ago
      Reputation and past records are not ad homs. They're reputation and past records. That's a valid heuristic for assessment in cases where quality is hard or expensive to measure or value. Information acquisition is not itself free.
  - dredmorbius 7y ago
    Even a viewpoint or philosophy you disagree with strongly can be useful as insight into "the other side's" thinking. Stratechery is hit or miss in my view. It epitomises the definition: "An expert is a person who avoids the small errors while sweeping on to the grand fallacy." I'd recommend giving it the occasional gander.
    - RodgerTheGreat 7y ago
      A valid point.
flashman 7y ago
There's a line in the Stratechery article that makes perfect sense in the context of WeWork: "Uber without an at-scale competitor is a much more valuable company." It's the same point Stoller is trying to make: Financiers "find big markets and then dump capital into one player in such a market who can underprice until he becomes the dominant remaining actor."

legitster 7y ago

I can't recommend the Stratechery piece enough (or Stratechery in general).

RodgerTheGreat 7y ago
On the contrary, given the author's myopic and rosy perspective on surveillance capitalism as espoused in the article "Privacy Fundamentalism"[1] (and apparently amended in a follow-up which is paywalled), I find it hard to take anything on that blog seriously. [1]https://stratechery.com/2019/privacy-fundamentalism/ https://stratechery.com/2019/privacy-fundamentalism/
- askafriend 7y ago
  Ben is one of the greatest thinkers in technology writing today - period. You're only depriving yourself of an important perspective in this case. He's open to arguments and is extremely reasonable. If you're only looking for writing that agrees with what you already believe then you might be disappointed, but if you're looking for extremely thoughtful thinking on strategy and technology then you won't find anyone better than Ben. It's not just a blog, it's a paid publication with a ton of research and effort behind it.
  - ryandrake 7y ago
    Which is why that article that OP points out is such an odd outlier. In contrast to the normally wonderful and insightful reading on that site, the one on privacy stood out as total defensiveness. I’m not going to condemn the author over just that one but it was weird!
    - munk-a 7y ago
      I agree, I'm pretty unfamiliar with that source personally but I did check out that article and was quite disappointed with the content of it... It didn't seem malignant but it was certainly quite ignorant of potential issues.
  - RodgerTheGreat 7y ago
    The article I referenced boils down to dismissing fears of online privacy invasion as alarmism. Exploring his own site's dependencies, Ben concludes that the third parties phoned home to for every visitor are probably harmless. He recommends that discourse focus on striking a balance between technology being convenient and secure, and not worrying too much. This essay reflects a profound failure of imagination with respect to the present and future of online tracking, and the risk it poses to consumers and citizens. This is an issue which is at the heart of the business models and strategy of the world's most powerful corporations, so in my opinion having this blind spot (or, perhaps, degree of ethical flexibility) seriously undermines the veracity and objectivity of his analysis in many areas.
    - ajb 7y ago
      This. Say some company found that they could pay landlords to let them borrow everyone's keys, and used them to go inside while you are out and stick an ad inside your bathroom where you will see it when you're taking a dump. Sure, the ad is harmless. But you can't just shrug it off because then you've accepted the principle that companies can pay your landlord for access to you and your house.
    - legitster 7y ago
      Wow. That is a SERIOUS mischaracterization of the article and his conculusions. The third parties in question were services like Stripe (since he monetizes with subscriptions, not advertising) or Cloudflare. His whole point was he takes privacy seriously, but fundamentalist policy punishes good and bad actors equally. But even all that aside, by your own words, it's not his treatments of the facts but his failure to account for the worst possible hypothetical situation that you have imagined in this specific area that is most important to you that makes him an unreliable journalist on any-and-all subjects? I would challenge you that this is an unhealthy purity test for him to pass.
- legitster 7y ago
  > Again, this is not to say that privacy isn’t important: it is one of many things that are important. That, though, means that online privacy in particular should not be the end-all be-all but rather one part of a difficult set of trade-offs that need to be made when it comes to dealing with this new reality that is the Internet. Being an absolutist will lead to bad policy I don't understand, this article seems completely reasonable. He's asking people to think critically about their absolutist takes.
- disjhshava 7y ago
  You're bringing up an unrelated article to make an ad-hominem attack on the author. Seems like a fundamentalist response to a heretic.
  - dredmorbius 7y ago
    Reputation and past records are not ad homs. They're reputation and past records. That's a valid heuristic for assessment in cases where quality is hard or expensive to measure or value. Information acquisition is not itself free.
- dredmorbius 7y ago
  Even a viewpoint or philosophy you disagree with strongly can be useful as insight into "the other side's" thinking. Stratechery is hit or miss in my view. It epitomises the definition: "An expert is a person who avoids the small errors while sweeping on to the grand fallacy." I'd recommend giving it the occasional gander.
  - RodgerTheGreat 7y ago
    A valid point.

flashman 7y ago

There's a line in the Stratechery article that makes perfect sense in the context of WeWork: "Uber without an at-scale competitor is a much more valuable company." It's the same point Stoller is trying to make: Financiers "find big markets and then dump capital into one player in such a market who can underprice until he becomes the dominant remaining actor."