4 ms·

What crime did 8chan commit? I don't mean what did they do that you don't like, I mean what actual crime?

thenewnewguy 7y ago
Why are they required to have committed a crime? Cloudflare isn't the government, why do you believe they're obligated to serve 8chan? Cloudflare took down one website that was directly related to a major tragedy that cost people their lives. If you want to complain about that go ahead, but I don't care. I don't allow people to use my websites to spread that kind of hate, and I have no problem with Cloudflare doing the same in extreme circumstances.
- sverige 7y ago
  The original comment had to do with whether we should trust Cloudflare more than Facebook. If they as a company want to make editorial decisions, that's fine, but the reality is that also means they are not content agnostic. Interestingly enough, they provide services for known spammers and other shady internet operations. As to whether 8chan 'caused' those abhorrent crimes, I couldn't say, any more than 'violent video games' caused them. I view such crimes as having a root cause of some form of mental illness, which does not (imo) relieve the doers of culpability. The point is that they are demonstrably not exactly what they claim to be, and thus some level of distrust is warranted.
  - thenewnewguy 7y ago
    > The point is that they are demonstrably not exactly what they claim to be, and thus some level of distrust is warranted. Where does Cloudflare claim to be content agnostic?
    - throw0101a 7y ago
      > Where does Cloudflare claim to be content agnostic? They may want to claim it, one way or the other, as part of their IPO filing so that potential investors have some idea of liability risks with the company.
    - sverige 7y ago
      Here's one of their statements about free speech from six years ago. It's essentially what I've always thought of as their brand. It's sad to see them compromise their principles, but sometimes it only takes one little Twitter mob to make people back down. That's why it's reasonable to question their character. https://blog.cloudflare.com/cloudflare-and-free-speech/ https://blog.cloudflare.com/cloudflare-and-free-speech/
      - afiori 7y ago
        My personal impression was that they did not surrender to a mob, but that the mob made them look closer to what they were hosting. I am not saying it is better, this is just my personal impression.
    - nyolfen 7y ago
      their ceo previously took a 'stand' before buckling
      - pnako 7y ago
        I have no reason to doubt that the CEO believes in free speech. Many people share this belief. He did buckle, but we're only human. But did the pressure come from an angry mob on twitter, as most people assume, or from some guys wearing shades and an earpiece?
        nyolfen 7y ago
        i don't doubt his belief, only his conviction.
    - anon12345690 7y ago
      that was like their major claim until they dropped stormfront and 8chan but they didnt drop all the other sites
- afiori 7y ago
  It is not about CF being forced to serve them, it is about balance, honestly I am fine with this take-down, but this cannot be dismissed as just being private individuals with private choices. This was obviously in their freedom to do, and it is not for me to say whether it was wrong or not (I actually quite like CF), but if stuff like this become a pattern then things become problematic. It would either mean that the laws are insufficient or that the market is overreaching.
daxorid 7y ago
8chan's primary crime is not being sufficiently popular. The Christchurch killer livestreamed the event on Facebook, and the enormous well-funded content moderation apparatus within failed to shut it down until well after the innocents were dead. But Grandma uses Facebook, so we can't go after them. The Wal-Mart shooter had a Twitter account, and posted plenty of content questionable enough even for the FBI to take notice. But cousin Jake uses Twitter, so we can't go after them. It doesn't matter what 8chan was used for, because far more popular platforms were used for far worse content. The only thing that mattered here was popularity. And 8chan didn't have it.
- sascha_sl 7y ago
  8chan attracting such people despite being so small is the entire point and i can't believe i have to point that out they want those people there this is where they radicalize each other
  - afiori 7y ago
    https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/07/22/freedom-on-the-centralized-web/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/07/22/freedom-on-the-central... quote: There’s an unfortunate corollary to this, which is that if you try to create a libertarian paradise, you will attract three deeply virtuous people with a strong commitment to the principle of universal freedom, plus millions of scoundrels. Declare that you’re going to stop holding witch hunts, and your coalition is certain to include more than its share of witches.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - afiori 7y ago
      As an addition, this is not meant to discourage you from taking this path.
      - chessturk 7y ago
IOT_Apprentice 7y ago
Where did I say they created a crime? Perhaps your lust for viewing mass murder in real-time must be slaked by 8chan, but I have no such interest. Nor should it be the go to place to encourage or host such content. Stop being obtuse.
- afiori 7y ago
  Sometimes people see things differently from you without being stupid.
- dang 7y ago
  Could you please stop posting in the flamewar style to HN? You've done it more than once, and that's not what we're trying for here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Why are they required to have committed a crime? Cloudflare isn't the government, why do you believe they're obligated to serve 8chan? Cloudflare took down one website that was directly related to a major tragedy that cost people their lives. If you want to complain about that go ahead, but I don't care. I don't allow people to use my websites to spread that kind of hate, and I have no problem with Cloudflare doing the same in extreme circumstances.

sverige 7y ago
The original comment had to do with whether we should trust Cloudflare more than Facebook. If they as a company want to make editorial decisions, that's fine, but the reality is that also means they are not content agnostic. Interestingly enough, they provide services for known spammers and other shady internet operations. As to whether 8chan 'caused' those abhorrent crimes, I couldn't say, any more than 'violent video games' caused them. I view such crimes as having a root cause of some form of mental illness, which does not (imo) relieve the doers of culpability. The point is that they are demonstrably not exactly what they claim to be, and thus some level of distrust is warranted.
- thenewnewguy 7y ago
  > The point is that they are demonstrably not exactly what they claim to be, and thus some level of distrust is warranted. Where does Cloudflare claim to be content agnostic?
  - throw0101a 7y ago
    > Where does Cloudflare claim to be content agnostic? They may want to claim it, one way or the other, as part of their IPO filing so that potential investors have some idea of liability risks with the company.
  - sverige 7y ago
    Here's one of their statements about free speech from six years ago. It's essentially what I've always thought of as their brand. It's sad to see them compromise their principles, but sometimes it only takes one little Twitter mob to make people back down. That's why it's reasonable to question their character. https://blog.cloudflare.com/cloudflare-and-free-speech/ https://blog.cloudflare.com/cloudflare-and-free-speech/
    - afiori 7y ago
      My personal impression was that they did not surrender to a mob, but that the mob made them look closer to what they were hosting. I am not saying it is better, this is just my personal impression.
  - nyolfen 7y ago
    their ceo previously took a 'stand' before buckling
    - pnako 7y ago
      I have no reason to doubt that the CEO believes in free speech. Many people share this belief. He did buckle, but we're only human. But did the pressure come from an angry mob on twitter, as most people assume, or from some guys wearing shades and an earpiece?
      - nyolfen 7y ago
        i don't doubt his belief, only his conviction.
  - anon12345690 7y ago
    that was like their major claim until they dropped stormfront and 8chan but they didnt drop all the other sites
afiori 7y ago
It is not about CF being forced to serve them, it is about balance, honestly I am fine with this take-down, but this cannot be dismissed as just being private individuals with private choices. This was obviously in their freedom to do, and it is not for me to say whether it was wrong or not (I actually quite like CF), but if stuff like this become a pattern then things become problematic. It would either mean that the laws are insufficient or that the market is overreaching.

daxorid 7y ago

8chan's primary crime is not being sufficiently popular. The Christchurch killer livestreamed the event on Facebook, and the enormous well-funded content moderation apparatus within failed to shut it down until well after the innocents were dead. But Grandma uses Facebook, so we can't go after them. The Wal-Mart shooter had a Twitter account, and posted plenty of content questionable enough even for the FBI to take notice. But cousin Jake uses Twitter, so we can't go after them. It doesn't matter what 8chan was used for, because far more popular platforms were used for far worse content. The only thing that mattered here was popularity. And 8chan didn't have it.

sascha_sl 7y ago
8chan attracting such people despite being so small is the entire point and i can't believe i have to point that out they want those people there this is where they radicalize each other
- afiori 7y ago
  https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/07/22/freedom-on-the-centralized-web/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2015/07/22/freedom-on-the-central... quote: There’s an unfortunate corollary to this, which is that if you try to create a libertarian paradise, you will attract three deeply virtuous people with a strong commitment to the principle of universal freedom, plus millions of scoundrels. Declare that you’re going to stop holding witch hunts, and your coalition is certain to include more than its share of witches.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - afiori 7y ago
    As an addition, this is not meant to discourage you from taking this path.
    - chessturk 7y ago

IOT_Apprentice 7y ago

Where did I say they created a crime? Perhaps your lust for viewing mass murder in real-time must be slaked by 8chan, but I have no such interest. Nor should it be the go to place to encourage or host such content. Stop being obtuse.

afiori 7y ago
Sometimes people see things differently from you without being stupid.
dang 7y ago
Could you please stop posting in the flamewar style to HN? You've done it more than once, and that's not what we're trying for here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html