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Smokers switching to ecigs is a good thing. Significantly proved health outcomes. But kids adopting flavored ecigs and beginning smoking is horrible. So we n

Smokers switching to ecigs is a good thing. Significantly proved health outcomes. But kids adopting flavored ecigs and beginning smoking is horrible. So we need to limit ecigs to the first use case and minimize the second otherwise ecigs/vaping could be an overall net negative. So I do strongly favor no advertising at all and no flavors or colors except mentol or something else which appeals to existing smokers.

least 7y ago
Alternatively we can inform children about the risks of using e-cigarettes and let them make the decision on their own? Existing smokers like the different flavors as well and it's definitely one of the appeals it has over smoking cigarettes. EDIT: I'd like to make the point that I'm not a proponent of children making their own decisions as a child. We've already accepted as a society (generally) that children do not have the same agency as adults. I'm suggesting that people are allowed to inform children about the risks just as we do with smoking and drinking and allow them to make that decision when they are able to.
- dx87 7y ago
  I don't know if you've ever met a child, but informing them of risks and letting them make their own decisions isn't always the best idea. I don't know how many times I've been at restaurants and heard parents say "be careful, the plate is hot" followed by the sound of the kid crying because they didn't listen and grabbed the hot plate/food.
  - least 7y ago
    I'm not suggesting we should be letting 12 year olds vape. I'm saying that we treat it like other vices that people imbibe in.
    - dymk 7y ago
      ...by not letting children make their own choices weather or not to imbibe. We don't allow kids to buy weed or alcohol either. They don't make informed decisions because they are literally incapable of it. They do not have adult brains yet.
      - least 7y ago
        That's exactly what I said, though? We allow adults to imbibe in weed (in some places) and alcohol (in most places). The decision to partake in these things doesn't happen when you're an adult. The choice is often informed by a combination of their peers, their parents, and their education at a much earlier age. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough; I don't think children should be able to use vape products just as I don't think they should be drinking or smoking. I do think that they should be allowed to make that choice when they're an adult.
- dymk 7y ago
  Children are not equipped to make these sorts of choices about their health, regardless of what libertarians may tell you.
  - goatinaboat 7y ago
    It’s not libertarians claiming that children can make their own life-changing healthcare decisions.
    - dymk 7y ago
      Who is?
      - least 7y ago
        I'm assuming this is referencing hormone blockers or hormone supplementation in children that identify as trans.
    - goatinaboat 7y ago
      No libertarian of my acquaintance would say that marketing addiction to children is just the free market but that’s what’s happening here. I just object to libertarians being tarred with that brush.
hawkedit 7y ago
I'm curious why you feel that restricting all flavoring in e-cig juice would be a good thing. You do realize that would just push things underground and out of a somewhat regulated market even more... It doesn't take a rocket scientist to make their own flavored juice at home after ordering the supplies... Not to mention the disrupt that would have on local business with the tens of thousands of vape shops that have popped up across the country, all of which require the customer to be 18 or 21 years old..
- 6gvONxR4sf7o 7y ago
  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to roll a cigarette either, but I think most people buy them in stores.
  - hawkedit 7y ago
    The entire point of the original comment was limiting underage consumption. Not sure what this proves.
    - 6gvONxR4sf7o 7y ago
      You can change a lot of things before the market moves underground. You increase cigarette taxes and smoking rates go down [0]. It could have moved underground, since it doesn't take a rocket scientist to roll one, but it didn't because that's not the dominant factor. If the flavor really really matters to people maybe what you said will happen, but I'd bet against that.
- Barrin92 7y ago
  here in Germany distilling your own spirits is illegal (I think there's an exception for very small personal amounts), and yet I don't think I've ever seen some sort of early 20th century moonshine market. I've seen these arguments about enforcement frequently but we're talking about modern governments here. If Uncle Sam wants to stop flavoured smoking they will be successful. They can go after online platforms that don't shut these exchanges down, they can go after individual sellers with harsh punishments, and so on. I very much doubt the margins on vaping products are so high that someone is going to risk their neck over it. Menthol cigarettes in the EU were banned a few years ago and I can't remember having seen one in a long time.
stronglikedan 7y ago
Fruity flavors were a life-saver for me, because it allowed me to distance myself from tobacco flavor so much, that it made me nauseous when I would try to smoke a real cigarette again. It just so happens that the "something else which appeals to existing smokers", e.g., fruity flavors, may also be appealing to non-smokers. However, I don't see that as a strong enough argument to ban them.
- glitcher 7y ago
  I know several adults who vape, and none of them choose plain tobacco flavors. I understand that marketing to teens is horrible, but the argument that all flavored vapes should be banned doesn't make any sense to me. If Stoli decided they wanted to market blueberry vodka to teens, go after the company, don't ban all fruit flavored liquor!
- cwkoss 7y ago
  My concern with 'fruity flavors' is the molecular diversity. Many of these compounds are considered safe for human consumption (edible) but under-researched when vaporized an inhaled, which has the potential for formation of novel unexpected compounds, especially in heterogenous solutions. I think the risk from these compounds is likely an order of magnitude less than the risks of cigarette smoking, and these risks will decrease as we get more data on longer-term use for these compounds. I read one study that found benzene formation in vapor from higher-watt devices, but not in lower ones. I think using minimum necessary power is a good harm mitigation measure until more data comes in, that would likely help with flavors as well. Seems like stringent labeling requirements for vape juice would be a cheap win for regulators and consumers. Give us an MSDS with the exact constituents.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]

least 7y ago

Alternatively we can inform children about the risks of using e-cigarettes and let them make the decision on their own? Existing smokers like the different flavors as well and it's definitely one of the appeals it has over smoking cigarettes. EDIT: I'd like to make the point that I'm not a proponent of children making their own decisions as a child. We've already accepted as a society (generally) that children do not have the same agency as adults. I'm suggesting that people are allowed to inform children about the risks just as we do with smoking and drinking and allow them to make that decision when they are able to.

dx87 7y ago
I don't know if you've ever met a child, but informing them of risks and letting them make their own decisions isn't always the best idea. I don't know how many times I've been at restaurants and heard parents say "be careful, the plate is hot" followed by the sound of the kid crying because they didn't listen and grabbed the hot plate/food.
- least 7y ago
  I'm not suggesting we should be letting 12 year olds vape. I'm saying that we treat it like other vices that people imbibe in.
  - dymk 7y ago
    ...by not letting children make their own choices weather or not to imbibe. We don't allow kids to buy weed or alcohol either. They don't make informed decisions because they are literally incapable of it. They do not have adult brains yet.
    - least 7y ago
      That's exactly what I said, though? We allow adults to imbibe in weed (in some places) and alcohol (in most places). The decision to partake in these things doesn't happen when you're an adult. The choice is often informed by a combination of their peers, their parents, and their education at a much earlier age. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough; I don't think children should be able to use vape products just as I don't think they should be drinking or smoking. I do think that they should be allowed to make that choice when they're an adult.
dymk 7y ago
Children are not equipped to make these sorts of choices about their health, regardless of what libertarians may tell you.
- goatinaboat 7y ago
  It’s not libertarians claiming that children can make their own life-changing healthcare decisions.
  - dymk 7y ago
    Who is?
    - least 7y ago
      I'm assuming this is referencing hormone blockers or hormone supplementation in children that identify as trans.
  - goatinaboat 7y ago
    No libertarian of my acquaintance would say that marketing addiction to children is just the free market but that’s what’s happening here. I just object to libertarians being tarred with that brush.

hawkedit 7y ago

I'm curious why you feel that restricting all flavoring in e-cig juice would be a good thing. You do realize that would just push things underground and out of a somewhat regulated market even more... It doesn't take a rocket scientist to make their own flavored juice at home after ordering the supplies... Not to mention the disrupt that would have on local business with the tens of thousands of vape shops that have popped up across the country, all of which require the customer to be 18 or 21 years old..

6gvONxR4sf7o 7y ago
It doesn't take a rocket scientist to roll a cigarette either, but I think most people buy them in stores.
- hawkedit 7y ago
  The entire point of the original comment was limiting underage consumption. Not sure what this proves.
  - 6gvONxR4sf7o 7y ago
    You can change a lot of things before the market moves underground. You increase cigarette taxes and smoking rates go down [0]. It could have moved underground, since it doesn't take a rocket scientist to roll one, but it didn't because that's not the dominant factor. If the flavor really really matters to people maybe what you said will happen, but I'd bet against that.
Barrin92 7y ago
here in Germany distilling your own spirits is illegal (I think there's an exception for very small personal amounts), and yet I don't think I've ever seen some sort of early 20th century moonshine market. I've seen these arguments about enforcement frequently but we're talking about modern governments here. If Uncle Sam wants to stop flavoured smoking they will be successful. They can go after online platforms that don't shut these exchanges down, they can go after individual sellers with harsh punishments, and so on. I very much doubt the margins on vaping products are so high that someone is going to risk their neck over it. Menthol cigarettes in the EU were banned a few years ago and I can't remember having seen one in a long time.

stronglikedan 7y ago

Fruity flavors were a life-saver for me, because it allowed me to distance myself from tobacco flavor so much, that it made me nauseous when I would try to smoke a real cigarette again. It just so happens that the "something else which appeals to existing smokers", e.g., fruity flavors, may also be appealing to non-smokers. However, I don't see that as a strong enough argument to ban them.

glitcher 7y ago
I know several adults who vape, and none of them choose plain tobacco flavors. I understand that marketing to teens is horrible, but the argument that all flavored vapes should be banned doesn't make any sense to me. If Stoli decided they wanted to market blueberry vodka to teens, go after the company, don't ban all fruit flavored liquor!
cwkoss 7y ago
My concern with 'fruity flavors' is the molecular diversity. Many of these compounds are considered safe for human consumption (edible) but under-researched when vaporized an inhaled, which has the potential for formation of novel unexpected compounds, especially in heterogenous solutions. I think the risk from these compounds is likely an order of magnitude less than the risks of cigarette smoking, and these risks will decrease as we get more data on longer-term use for these compounds. I read one study that found benzene formation in vapor from higher-watt devices, but not in lower ones. I think using minimum necessary power is a good harm mitigation measure until more data comes in, that would likely help with flavors as well. Seems like stringent labeling requirements for vape juice would be a cheap win for regulators and consumers. Give us an MSDS with the exact constituents.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]